UPDATE: Monster in Fort Wayne, Indiana

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:40] Hi, Crime Junkies. We are back with another update episode. This time, I got the opportunity to sit down with April Tinsley's mom, Janet, and we covered April's case back on episode 18. As a reminder, these update episodes are not a retelling of the cases. They're a chance [01:00] or correct misinformation about the case. So if you haven't heard episode 18 yet, go back and listen. You'll want to know all of the details and the players of the case before we jump into this. And on that note, I'm sorry for the audio quality on this one. The only chance I had to meet with Janet was at a restaurant outdoors. So at times you might hear traffic or people walking by. It's not perfect, but it is real life. So with that, let's jump in.

[01:30] Brett, the first thing that I asked Janet when I met with her was about the events of the day that April went missing. I know this sounds minute, but one thing that I couldn't seem to get straight from online research was where was that umbrella that April left? Yeah, some places say she went home to get it. Some say that it was at a friend's house. It was confusing for me, too. Well, here's how Janet explained it. She left your house to go to another friend's house, right? [02:00] she went well when she when i called her from downstairs i took the umbrella down there and handed to her she um came and got the umbrella and i walked her to the the alley and watched her go through used to be a school but they tore it down and it was just a vacant grass and i watched her across that and then she made it to the girl's house and then her and nicole at the time left [02:30] house for a while and then they they both left came went outside and went around the corner to the other little girl that they went to school with went to her house and april knew she had to be home like 3 30 4 o'clock yeah before it started raining again and so april left the other little girl's house to go around the corner to get her umbrella and she never made it around

[03:01] So initially, April went to her friend Nicole's house. [03:04] and she had her umbrella from home with her there. But her and Nicole left to go to a third friend's house just around the corner, and she left her umbrella at Nicole's. And it is when they left this third girl's house, she was planning on going back to Nicole's to get her umbrella and then go home, but she never even made it to Nicole's just around the corner. Man, that makes me wonder if April was the target specifically, or if it could have been any of the girls, [03:34] I know. It's something I actually brought up to Janet, and I asked her what she thought, and she said she doesn't know either. Anything is possible at this point. But yeah, whoever this guy was, he was probably just looking for a little girl, and April happened to be that little girl. It still shocks me that no one saw or heard anything. [04:04] with a couple of guys in it. Wait, a couple of guys? [04:27] I don't think we ever heard a couple of guys before. No, I saw it come up randomly in the research, but...

[04:35] I assume it came from this witness, the same witness that saw the blue truck. But if we're to go off of everything on the FBI and police websites, they feel that they're confident it's just one guy now. Did Janet agree with them? Not 100%. She actually says she trusts the police, that they have all the info and know what they're doing. But it's really hard for her to believe that just one guy could have taken April. Because like I told the police department, there had to be more than one. [05:05] ring one in the back two in the front one to jump one to jump out and grab the child one to throw her back in there and get out because at first they thought there was only one person because i said no how is that one person going to go around stop the vehicle get out go around the [05:35] jump right back in, throw her in the truck, roll around, jump back in, get in the car without. I get where she's coming from. [05:44] It's terrifying to think that one guy could pull over, park his car, get out, snatch a little girl off the street, put her in the car, and get away with no one seeing his face or license plate. [05:56] Or anything. Yeah, it's not like people weren't out that day. Janet told me that there was a group of guys actually working on a car all outside, just catty corner, from exactly where they think April was taken. And they didn't hear or see a thing. And this is where I think police and even Janet come back to wondering if it was someone that April knew who she could have gone with. But even that list of people is very small. I said, if she was shy and bashful, she wouldn't go to nobody.

[06:26] The only person she went to was my mom and dad. And her own uncle lived four houses down from where we lived at. Every time he says, see her, he'll say, hi, April. [06:46] She will hide. We're 30 years out now. [06:50] I have to assume they looked at all of the family, right? Right. The police actually started with the family. [06:57] Investigating us because I had to do DNA twice. I knew the family would have had to been cleared, but Janet said it was more than that. They were sure that the family had to have been involved somehow. And not necessarily her mom or her dad, but someone in the family, someone that would have known her. But why did they need DNA twice? I asked Janet that as well. [07:20] why they did a DNA twice. I know I flunked a lie detector test. You did? Yeah. Was this like right when it happened? Oh yeah. This is why you don't take a polygraph. Exactly. I am telling everyone now if all you take out of this whole episode is that April's mom failed a polygraph and you go online and spread rumors, you are a bad, bad person. She had nothing to do with sexually assaulting and murdering her eight-year-old daughter. It just shows you though that when [07:50] traumatic happens to you, you're in such an emotional state, you can fail one of those easily. They're machines and they're wrong a lot of the time. It's just sad though that there's no winning. Like either you take it when you're a wreck and you fail and the police waste time looking at you, or you refuse to take it and you still look suspicious and police waste time looking at you. I know it's not fair. I've seen so many instances of parents failing lie detectors when their kids

[08:20] did anything. I'd like to think that people from Indiana are decent people and wouldn't dare think to accuse her of murdering her own daughter, especially knowing the way she died. Oh, you'd think that, but crime junkie life rule number six, people suck. There are few certainties in life. It's death, taxes, and trolls. So all I ask of everyone listening is be a kind and understanding person. You need to be the balance to all of the negativity and awful that other people are [08:50] Your college decision is personal. It's a serious choice that no one takes lightly. Well, Southern New Hampshire University is serious about helping you earn your degree your way. We're talking no set class times and 24-7 access to online coursework, so you can build a schedule that works for you. SNHU also understands that you're coming into college with a goal. Whether you're a career changer, an aspiring leader, or just getting started, they've got over 200 online programs to help you take your next step. And when it comes to paying for college, don't stress. [09:20] the lowest online tuition in the U.S., plus experienced student finance counselors to guide you through your journey. A college that takes your education as seriously as you do? That's SNHU. Visit snhu.edu slash crimejunkie to learn more. That's snhu.edu slash crimejunkie. [09:40] I had some woman put in a paper that she heard that I didn't want the little girl, I just want all boys to like eliminated her. Somebody said that?

[10:00] Mm-hmm. Oh my God, I'm so sorry, that's disgusting. [10:10] that we knew and I told him I go print this and he he was printing it and I sitting there you tell him ever since I was 16 years old I told him I when I got married whenever I got married the first child I had if it was a little girl it was gonna be named April Marie it was gonna [10:40] curly hair and go have blue eyes and when she was born everybody knew exactly who was because she had curly hair and it was just brown brown but i'm sitting there i had a piece of paper that i had notarized until when i i'm sitting there uh if i didn't want the little girl then how come i [11:10] suck. [11:11] I know. And I feel so bad because Janet felt like she had to justify herself to these people. She explained to me how she always wanted a girl, always knew her name would be April. And it just made me sad that anyone who had put her in the position to have to justify wanting her own daughter, like of course she wanted her daughter, of course she loved her. People even accused April's dad at some point of like pushing her down the stairs and then all this was just a giant cover up. It's all horrible, horrible stuff.

[11:41] than any one mother should. She actually shared with me something that no one talks about anymore in relation to April. April was actually a twin. What? I did not know that. What everybody don't know, well, everybody keeps forgetting about the other one. April was a twin. I never knew that. Yep, she was a twin. I lost her twin three months prior being born, and I had to carry all of them together. Oh, my God, Janet. [12:11] So you had to deliver two babies, but you only had April. [12:16] That makes this whole thing even more heartbreaking. I know. It would have been another brother for April. And she's had enough grief for one lifetime. And she lost her first baby, got to raise April until she was eight, and then lost her as well. And her son, who was two at the time that April went missing, is now 32. His name's Paul. [12:41] he should move out and he should be on his own. I don't think anyone has the right to look in on their situation and say what they should or shouldn't do. I agree, but this is what Janet has been facing since day one. She said people tell her all the time, you should be doing this or you should be looking here. [12:55] I know a lot of people have told us over the years that, um, what they would do if it was them, and they'd be out searching for the person. I was in there. Ain't like I have. What can you do? I was in there. I don't know where he's at. He could be anywhere. He could be dead, as far as I know. He could be in another state somewhere. I have no idea.

[13:25] I'm wanting to know about the jogger who found her and everything else. I said, don't ask me because I don't know his name. I don't know his wife's name. I don't know the area where they found her at because I've never been there. Really? I told everybody, they go, why haven't you been here to put flowers on? I said, nope, I can't do that. Wow, after 30 years, she's never been there? It's got to be hard. I don't know if I could go to this site either. [13:55] to live with so many awful sights and memories. I don't think she needs more. And she actually talked to me a little bit about the night that she had to identify April. [14:06] Well, before they transfer her back, they had us go up there to identify her. [14:18] Yeah, that right there haunt me for a while. You had to go? Oh, yeah, I had to be the one. Was your husband with you? Nope. Just you? [14:36] with him to keep him from going nuts because he kept trying to say he was going to drink himself to death so they got his whiskey and all that and poured it out and kept an eye on him while me his other sister um the neighbor down the street and my sister one of my sisters and the minister went

[15:06] drove all the way up to Spencerville, went to the old hospital that's up there. [15:14] And when we're sitting there waiting for the coroner to come down, [15:21] sitting there, like, you get the nurses and everything, doctors coming up, they'll sit there and just hear it. I got so many holes in me. I said, there's good God, just there are more holes in me. [15:36] my sister go in with me. Yeah. But they wouldn't let my sister go in with me. So you had to do it alone. So they let the pastor go. So he went in with me. And when he went in, we seen the top part. And they go, well, we can't show you the whole body. I said, I wasn't [16:06] I said top part would have been to find the dandy so when I turned to her side and see how she was sleeping that was it I knew it right then and there and I just sat there and just stared I just sat there like didn't move didn't blink, didn't do nothing and they go are you alright and I'm sitting there yeah and so the

[16:36] put his arm around me and walked me out. He goes, so that is her. And I said, yes, it is. You can notify them that yes, it is. And then when we walked out the door, and after I shook the coroner's hand and everything, [16:54] everybody was sitting in the waiting room. I just walked straight past everybody, walked straight outside, went to the car. [17:06] happened and then heard my sister say it's her because she ain't talking i couldn't talk i cried all the way back halfway here and everybody the minister goes does you want anybody want anything to drink get some coffee or water or something because it's like 1 a.m in the morning and we [17:36] Two days ago. [17:39] And they go, we're going to stop and get you something to eat. I was sitting there. I couldn't eat. I just sprung it back with me. [17:49] And they had one guy there at the restaurant. Because I'm sitting there. You can tell if somebody's crying. [18:00] And I'm sitting there blowing my nose. Crying. Blowing my nose. Shaking.

[18:06] and rocking back and forth like I can't sit still. [18:12] And you had these smart-aleck people in a couple tables over and started staring and making fun of everybody. And I heard somebody saying what was wrong with her. [18:36] and says, "If y'all wanna know why I'm crying, it's 'cause I just had to identify my daughter's body, and she's only eight years of age." I said, "If y'all got a damn problem, y'all keep on looking." And when I said that, the whole restaurant, quiet, I mean, everyone in a, you could hear a pin drop. I don't even know what to say after that. I know. I don't know how she made it through. She said, [19:05] that people always say to her, if it were me, I would have gone nuts. The only thing that kept me from going completely nuts is that I knew I had a two-year-old child at home. [19:20] And like everybody else says, if it was me, I done went nuts, crazy. And I said, well, I had Paul at the time. And I focused myself on him. That kept me from going nuts. [19:35] There's days I'll have my good days. There's days I'll have my bad days. One thing that kind of stuck out to me is how the coroner wouldn't let her see all of April. Do you think that's just a formality or do you think there's more the police are keeping close to the vest? I really have no idea and I can't even begin to guess. But Janet and I did talk a little bit more about how April was found.

[19:57] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [20:16] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [20:24] wherever you get your podcasts. [20:27] She was fully clothed when they found her. She had her jacket on and everything else. The only thing that was inside out was her underclothes and her socks. They were inside out. So they know she had been undressed and then redressed. And the police department asked us if that's the way she dressed her clothes, you know, put her socks on backwards. I said, no. I said, because I put her socks on. I said, no, they wasn't inside out at the time. [20:57] And so they wanted to know if that's the way it was at the beginning. I said no. The police asked Janet over and over if April would have dressed herself this way or if someone in the home helped her dress. And her mom was emphatic, no, someone else must have put her clothes back on. And actually, this is something new that I learned from Janet. That... [21:21] It was that specific piece of information that led them to one of the only named suspects we talked about in the episode, Everett Scholl. Originally, I had heard that he was just talking about April at a party. It was very vague and nothing more specific than that.

[21:37] But. Because they arrested this guy named Everett Shaw. [21:42] And. [21:45] This was right after. Yeah, this was right after. Because he went to like a party. [21:51] And he was telling them, you know, what color clothes she had on, like socks, underwears and stuff like that. And I said, there ain't nobody should know about that unless it was me. [22:07] and he knew everything else and I said, if he didn't do it, he knew who did. So he was describing her socks and underwear. There's no way he couldn't have been there. Yeah. Like he had to have done it, right? Yeah, I can see why the police were so confident in the beginning that they had their guy. I would have thought he was their guy too. I think they did because when they arrested him for his stepdaughter, [22:37] they took his DNA, but they claim it didn't match, but he knew who it was because he wanted to talk. [22:50] I think it was he wanted to talk to them when he was in the hospital, or did he get sick? Because I know he got sick, and he was rushed to the hospital. When was this?

[23:07] Hmm. He's been gone. It's probably about 10, maybe 10 years ago, somewhere around there. So he wouldn't talk to police for a long time. His DNA didn't match. But not too long after April's funeral, I guess he got really sick and he was in the hospital. [23:37] Lutheran Hospital and try to talk to him and he was in like a I think he was in a coma and they reduced his coma and he was starting to come out of it and he wanted to talk to the police department so the detectives went back up there to talk to him and right when he was trying [24:07] God. Wait, and this was right after April's funeral or this was like 10 years ago? It was right after April's funeral. So Edward Scholl's been dead for a long time. Yeah, he's been dead. So he was going to talk to the police, but they didn't get there fast enough? No, they didn't know how bad his condition was, I guess. And I don't know how, like what time period this all took place over, but he was never able to give them anything. [24:31] Wait. [24:32] I'm confused. He seems like the guy, but his DNA wasn't a match? Right. I clarified this with Janet, too. They know he obviously didn't sexually assault her, but they're still thinking maybe he either had a partner or he knew exactly who did it, how, and why. We're thinking he knows who did it. Do you think he helped him or do you think he just talked to the guy?

[25:02] daughter there he was hanging around with his other guy that had a shady past who was that i'm not sure what his name was but he had a he had a um a blue van and that's who that's the main picture of it right there the blue van who's that guy [25:26] I don't know. But it sounds like he is a great suspect as well. But whoever he is, I have to assume police already cleared him and tested his DNA too, right? I mean, I guess they would have by now... [25:40] What the heck, though? How did Everett Schull know all of what he said he knew? No one knows, and he died with those secrets. So if it's not his DNA, and we can assume it's not his friend's DNA, who's left? Does she know of anyone else who might have done it? No, and frankly, she said she's so tired of people asking. Every time an anniversary hits, news stations will come around, do a five-second blur before they all go forget about April again. [26:10] It's always the same questions. Who do you think did it? Who do you think did it? And she said, my God, it's been 30 years. Don't you think if I had any idea we would have found the guy by now? I get that. That's got to be so annoying. Yeah. But we did talk a little bit about the suspect's profile and how police think that he's local. And I asked her her thoughts on this. At the time, to me, it had to be someone that knew the area.

[26:40] It's like in a rural area and yeah, like a ditch and everything and it's like whoever it was knew what they were doing. [26:58] She went on to mention that this was too put together and this wasn't their first time. So I asked her if she thought that this guy had ever done this before. I think they have because the way they did it and everything, to me, yeah, I think they have done it once or twice before. Well, if he did it before, he likely didn't do it in Indiana. I feel like we would have heard about similar cases and the Indiana State Police would have put that together, right? [27:28] Yeah, but there was Sarah's case. But when I asked her about that, she said that all she knows is police tell her they're not connected, but they won't tell her why. I get it early on. Like, you want to preserve a case if you go to trial. But at 30 years? Yeah, they keep telling us. They'll go, you can't. If you talk about the case, you can't say this. You can't say that. You can't talk about this. You can't talk about that. I said, well, I don't know half the stuff anyway because you ain't telling us anything. [27:58] And then I'm supposed to not talk about the case or anything else and it's like...I don't know. I was in there. Y'all gotta make up my mind.

[28:10] Listen, I get preserving stuff for trial, but it's been 30 years. I know, and when I talked to the Crime Stoppers people in Fort Wayne, they said the guy's probably dead by now. So, like, what's up? Why can't we talk about it? But her family isn't dead, so how about we give them some closure? [28:28] Even if someone is in the grave and we can't prosecute them anymore, my God, I bet they'd sleep better at night with at least one answer. I couldn't agree more. And I'll never figure this part out about cold cases. Why not just open it up to the public at the end? I mean, when you are this far down the line, 20, 25, 30 years, you literally have nothing to lose. It's been 30 years and no one has closure. And Janet thinks it's a selfish move by police. [28:58] We told one detecting, I know we made him mad. I said, I couldn't care less. I said, all you guys are doing is waiting for everybody to die. And then you'll come out with the case. But Janet thinks even if this person is dead, it doesn't mean all the answers are. Even if he did die. That's not the end for you guys. He's got family members. He's got a brother, kids. [29:28] see him acting strange. You know, there's something happened or something came up and he's been acting weird. And if police thought this guy is local, his family members are probably still around too. And maybe they'd be more willing to talk after this guy is gone, you know? Yeah. Janet brought up something else that I thought was really interesting. She said that after the funeral, police took the guest book. They had it for a long time and finally the family asked for

[29:58] the book. It was not an evidence book, room, or anything like that. So we threw it out. So you never got it back? We never got it back. The state department, state police didn't have it. County didn't have it. City didn't have it. But all of a sudden, [30:15] out of the blue, the city come up with a couple copies. [30:21] Gave us copies of the book. Some of the pages, not the [30:28] The whole book was a couple of pages. And the ones that they gave us was family that signed the book. But nobody else who you'd actually want to know was there. [30:40] Interesting. And there was like over a couple hundred people showed up. Wait, when it appeared again, they only got some of the pages? According to Janet, they only got the pages with family members named on it. [30:53] And there were hundreds of other people at the funeral. Yeah, we've talked about this before. A lot of times killers will go to the funeral of their victims to like experience the high and the thrill of the kill again, right? Yeah, or even just to see the family grieving or whatever sick reason. I would think that the police took this as kind of a checklist. I mean, when we talked about the episode, they had 400 people that they took DNA from. I have to imagine they kind of went down the list. [31:23] back to the family if they have it. They could have really lost it, but it's just weird to me. It's a big question mark. At the end of the day, Janet has just as many questions as all of us do, and sometimes her relationship with law enforcement is strained, and she loses faith that they'll ever be able to solve her daughter's case. It's been a cold case for some time now, and it gets put on the shelf and only dusted off if a new tip comes in or sometimes around the

[31:53] You're never going to stop if you're going to just put it back on the shelf. I said, they need somebody that will be on it all the time. Have someone that's got new eyeballs, new perspective. Yeah. Never know anything about the case. Let them look at it and let them determine what it can be. [32:21] So right now they're stuck in this same vicious cycle where the case only gets attention if something new comes in, but nothing new is coming in because it's been 30 years. And maybe because of that 30-year anniversary, they'll bring her case off the shelf and give it a fresh look. [32:36] I asked Janet how this time of year is for her. When it gets to her birthday, then it gets to the anniversary of the first four days of her anniversary date. Yeah. So you've never had a good Easter? No. I'd imagine you dreaded it. I never really celebrated Easter after that. [33:06] a bunch of people, I'll try to put a smiley face on there. But most of the time, ain't nobody knows not to call my house, don't call my phone, don't text me, don't come bother me, don't knock on my door. You just want to be alone? I just sit in my little chair, be by myself, have no TV on or nothing.

[33:27] So sad and heartbreaking. It is. It's been Janet's whole life for 30 years. And year after year, she just sits and she waits, hoping every year will bring her closer to answers for April. So again, we urge anyone with any information, anything at all, no matter how small, no matter how big, go to the website. Take a look at all of the pictures they have, the sketches, the evidence. [33:57] or the Fort Wayne Crime Stoppers. You can contact Fort Wayne Police at [34:02] by calling [redacted phone]. Or if you want to remain anonymous, you can contact the Fort Wayne Crime Stoppers at [redacted phone]. [34:14] 436-STOP. [34:16] You can also see all of the police sketches and different clues from the case on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. [34:32] Crime Junkie is written and hosted by me. All of our sound production and editing comes from Britt Prewatt. And all of our music, including our theme, comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. [34:46] in. [34:46] So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [34:53] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years.

[35:15] I think you'll love it too. [35:17] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.