#2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

[00:00] the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day gentlemen good to see you brother hey good to see you again how you been good and hanging man how about yourself [00:17] I'm good. I'm good. And Jeff, nice to meet you as well. Nice to meet you, Joe. This is... [00:21] Another one of your very unusual friendships, Darrell. I'm trying to make it the norm. You understand? Well, I mean, you're a real example of what can be done just by being a nice person. Hey, thank you, man, for the mention with... [00:37] um bono oh my pleasure my pleasure um so for people that don't know uh daryl has i mean how many people now have you converted i stopped counting after 200 and some daryl his journey initially started you're a musician you met a klansman at a bar and he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were you struck up a friendship and i played like jerry lee lewis and he didn't [01:08] this guy... [01:09] quit the Klan because of you and handed you his outfit and said, like, I'm done. Obviously, I'm wrong. All this is wrong. [01:18] And... [01:19] You then went on to start meeting a lot of other Klan members and a lot of other different neo-Nazi factions and... [01:27] You got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations. Well, I got them to rethink politics.

[01:34] Because I gave them perspectives they had not considered before or not been exposed to, and that caused them to quit. It wasn't like I was trying to get them out. I was just trying to show them a different path. Right. But it's just your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable. Because that's a very tough path. You know, you, for people just listening, you're a black man. [02:00] You're meeting a Klansman. [02:02] And you strike up a friendship. You wind up having dinner at his house, hanging out with him. He's like, you're actually a really nice guy. He's like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing with my life? And just by your own personality and just being a good human, you – [02:18] converting them. But you know, an interesting component to that also happens because there are people who won't talk to me [02:24] And they want to fight me and stuff, all the kind of crazy stuff. I've seen it all, right? But some of their buddies who are just as hateful as they are, when they talk to me and they end up leaving – [02:36] their life improves. Hate is exhausting. Right. You know? And hate begets more hate. Yeah. But so when they leave, their life improves, and then the buddy who went to fight me or didn't want to talk to me, [02:48] he sees his buddy's life improve, then he reconsiders. So it has that component to it as well. [02:55] So – [02:56] It's been more than 200 now, which is really amazing. And I think just these conversations that you've had. [03:03] with a lot of people sort of opened up a lot of people's eyes as well as like,

[03:07] you know, you think of someone like that's a [03:09] a KKK member neo-nazi or whatever it is and you go that guy's got to be a piece of shit as a human being and [03:17] And then you realize, like, well, a lot of these people just got fucked over in life and started off on the wrong foot and were with the wrong people and got indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and experienced the wrong things. And next thing you know, they have this rigid idea of what the world is and how they fit in. [03:35] And it's all fucked up and it's all wrong. And they just don't run into anyone... [03:40] that shows them a different perspective. Like, if you're in a small town... [03:44] And you're around just a bunch of assholes all the time. You're around the same assholes. Like you might think everyone's an asshole. Right. And then you go on vacation, maybe in Hawaii. Like, God, everybody's nice here. What's going on? Maybe I have a totally different view of the world. [03:58] Well, you could have that with everything. You could have that with geographical locations. You could have that with racial disparities. You could have that with everything. Well, I mean, you know, let's take racism out of the picture for a second. Let's look at our own country, you know, as a musician, right? I do a lot. I've played in all 50 states. [04:16] Okay. You know, and when I sign, you know, go to have a booking in say, let's say New York City, you know, everything's got to be on paper, got to sign this contract. And they want things like yesterday, you know, it's very fast paced, etc. So, you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever. My experience in the south. [04:35] You know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that. They don't care about contracts, even though I get one. You know, a handshake is good enough. You know, they...

[04:43] They feel that their word is their bond. [04:46] So, you know, you present them with a contract. It's like, what, you don't trust me? That kind of thing. In the Midwest, which is where I'm from originally, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you. They want to get to know you before they commit. They're very close to the vest. Out in California, it's like, I'll get around to it maybe next week, maybe the week after. Right, right. Now, Jeff, how did you guys meet? [05:08] So I was contacted by a filmmaker, and they said, would you come down and film as part of this program? So I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis. In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was because he was pulling people out of this movement. Explain the movement. What movement you were a part of. I was a part of the National Socialist Movement. [05:28] Which is Nazis. Nazis. For people that don't. It sounds like socialists. Like, oh, college campuses. You know, you want Marxism. Free health care for all. No. Different kind of socialism. [05:38] Yeah. Yeah. Neo-Nazism. Yeah. So. And how did you get indoctrinated into that? Yeah. [05:44] So I was a part of that movement for 27 years. [05:47] Wow. 25. How old are you? So I'm 51. 51. [05:50] Okay, you look young. I thought you were about 40. I was like, what the fuck? Well, that's okay. No, you look good. Thank you. Which is crazy for a Nazi. You'd think it's a lot of stress. You'd think it is a lot of stress. It is hate to be a lot of stress. Yeah, look, I lost all my hair. Well, I lost mine too, and I'm not a Nazi. You're not on my ass.

[06:10] So how old were you when you got into it? [06:12] When I first started the fascination with it was about fourth grade. Fourth grade? Fourth grade. How? [06:18] My grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war, and my great uncles did as well. So my mother and grandparents came over after the war. Wait a minute. Fought in Hitler's army? Correct. Oh, they fought for the Nazis. Yes. Wow. Yes. Wow. [06:34] So my mother and grandparents came over after the war. But so one would think, so he was indoctrinated by his family. [06:42] Not the truth. Quite opposite, actually. But I was fascinated. I knew that history, and I knew that my grandfather had fought, and I looked up to him. [06:52] sought out on a journey myself, you know, and... But what attracted you to that? Like, first of all, you said you have a mid-in Detroit church. Are you from Detroit? Yes. Well, I'm based in Detroit now. So were you living in Detroit at the time? Yes. So why, what made you fascinated with Nazis living in Detroit? Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota. I live in Detroit now is what I meant. But knowing that family history, I just looked up to my grandfather and I thought, you know, this, [07:22] Um, I'm just going to say it like I thought it was cool. [07:25] at the time there's nothing cool about it but I wasn't taught to hate I wasn't raised to hate and so I seek out this movement I join as a teenager quickly rise up through the ranks within a couple of years I was appointed a national leader of that organization and then I was there for 27 years so I was taught racism and hate and to be an anti-semite now when you were in the fourth grade what were you what were you do you remember what your feelings were about people

[07:49] I wasn't a racist at that point or anything like that. It was just thinking that it was cool, seeing the videos. I remember watching old World War II documentaries, thinking I'm going to find my grandfather in these footages. And I just looked up to him, and I sought out that path. And once you're indoctrinated, once you join and you're overwhelmed with this kind of ideology, it becomes your whole world. It's your echo chamber. [08:19] And so, like, when you're in the fourth grade and you get interested in this, how do you eventually, like, join up and meet the Nazis? Like, how does that happen? Well, at that age, you're not, you know, you're not meeting the Nazis or anything like that. Today, kids are online and they're... [08:33] And they are. That's a good point. Right. But at that point, I wasn't. So I was searching it out. And by the time I was 18, then I'm joining. [08:42] Yeah, you didn't have Kanye songs back then. Right. That song is so crazy. Like, somebody needs to pull Kanye aside and give him a hug. That song's crazy. [08:53] So what was the first organization that you officially became a part of, and what did they do? So the National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out. [09:04] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. Yes, that means you in Illinois.

[09:34] up with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours if you or someone you know has a gambling problem crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER 21 and over illinois only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [10:02] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [10:14] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know – [10:28] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time with our four-legged [10:58] best friend something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

[11:12] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. [11:42] just wood and fire and flavor and what's truly wild is how easy it is just set the temp load the grill and let traeger handle the rest grill steaks smoked ribs even baked pizza all on one grill if you're into fire flavor and doing things right check out traeger grills you find them first of all because this is all before the internet right right this is a really kind of strange story so i'm looking for books i'm trying to read everything i can on it i'm trying to find these [12:12] just being a nazi no i had i had a baseball or anything like that i was a long-haired rock and roll singer no fucking way right you are rock and roll nazi that's nuts right that seems like so that's like jumbo shrimp right that's so counterintuitive how are you a rock and roll nazi that's rock and roll is all about like freedom and creativity and expression i know there's a

[12:42] are really complicated. [12:44] you know um [12:45] So when you first found these people, so you're a rock and roll musician, and how do you find them? So I found them in a book. [12:55] At the library, I'm ordering all these books and it was written by a sociologist or something. And they had all these addresses of everybody that participated in the book in the back of the book. So I'm writing physically writing, not like emailing today, but like writing all these organizations. And then I eventually. [13:12] like 18 so you're 18 you're writing nazi groups saying hey i'm ready [13:16] Sign me up. Yep. [13:18] Wow. Okay, so who responds? So everybody, some of the groups were closed down at that point, but most of the groups responded, and I'm looking through all the literature, and I meet up with the National Socialist Movement at the time. It was called National Socialist American Workers Freedom Movement. Again, this is the Nazis. That's a lot of words. That's what I thought, yeah. American Workers Freedom Movement? Yeah, that's a lot of NS. Freedom for some people. Yeah, another counterintuitive thing there. Socialist for some people. [13:48] Right. Not that socialism, not left-wing. Yeah, weird socialism. Yeah. So like what were they involved in? So when you meet them, do you have to have like a – is there a vetting process? Do they make sure you're not a fed or sit you down and what are you looking for? Why are you involved? Why are you interested?

[14:18] The movement was a continuation of the movement of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was the original founder of the American Nazi Party. So that's why I wanted to join that particular organization, because it had that history, because I was a fan of history. I always wanted to be as close to the German movement as possible. So that was the group that I sought out. And then there is like a vetting process. You know, they want to know you sign up an application. [14:48] disclosure agreements and doing background checks on people and things of that nature. I want to point this out because this is a really crazy fact. It's going to blow a lot of people's minds. Before World War II, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden. American Bund, the German-American Bund. [15:08] it [15:09] is nuts when you see it in Madison Square Garden and you see the swastika, the whole deal, and you're like – [15:16] This is before anybody had connected this with evil. Right. Like back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol. Right. [15:23] There's a Hindu temple near my old house in California, and it has swastikas all over it. The temple's from the 1800s, and they have to tell people, hey, this is a sign. Hey, it's not that kind of swastika. Right. Back in 2018, the State Department sent me over to India to speak. [15:38] and lecture. [15:39] And you see these symbols? All over the place. Yeah. It's a peace, good luck kind of thing. It was also a symbol for Shotokan karate. When I was a kid, when we would meet these Shotokan karate tournaments, we'd go to tournaments and meet these practitioners, some of them would have swastika patches.

[15:58] This is in the 80s. This is nuts. Jamie, show that photo again. There's a video. Oh, okay. Show the video. It's really crazy because you see this. [16:08] enormous crowd. And this was before people had associated [16:13] Nazis with a bad thing. [16:15] Back then, it was just this national socialist party. They thought, okay, we're good. By the way, that's how everybody used to salute the American flag. Did you know that? Yes. Yes. [16:28] Which is really crazy. The Nazi salute now that Elon got in trouble for, that is how you used to pledge of allegiance. Right. Yep. [16:36] And then once the Nazis came on, all right, we've got to abandon that. This is connected. Got to ditch the little mustache and no more of that. [16:44] But this is a really crazy video to watch because it really makes you think, like, how... [16:51] things can shift. Well you know the the highest percentage of white people in this country [16:56] are of German descent. Really? Yeah. The second highest are of British descent. Yeah. [17:00] Wow. I had no idea. German. I would have... [17:04] Yeah. [17:05] A lot of people think it's British, but it's German. I would have thought, yeah, god, that's nuts. And you notice in the video, Joe, they also have George Washington. [17:12] up there. So they've Americanized neo-Nazism. But it was different back then, right? This wasn't a racial cleansing. They weren't involved in eugenics. They weren't thinking of those terms, right? I think that all came later, but this was all part of the movement here in the US. Right. But what was the core tenets of this movement, the American Nazi movement in the 1930s before the war?

[17:36] Basically, it was German activists and they were allied with Hitler's National Socialism. So was it anti-Semitic? Was it anti-Jewish back then? Sure, yes. It was. So this whole rally, this big anti-Semitism rally. Yeah, I mean that was before my time. You're a historian on the Nazis. Yes, yes. It seems like you're an enthusiast. I was, yeah. [18:03] When you first get brought in, you're 18. Do they give you tasks to do? Do they teach you about things? How does it go? Yeah, so a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff. But the group had meetings. You would have literature distributions. It would do – Like Mein Kampf? Yeah. Reading that? Yeah. I had already read that by – at 16, I already read that. [18:33] like that as well. Is that Henry Ford, the car guy? Yes. He wrote a book called International Jew? Yes. You know, he was very anti-Semitic and he supported the Nazis. Whoa. Yeah. Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk. Whoa. [18:52] You'd be surprised, man, about some of the people. Fuck. [18:59] You know, Walt Disney, same thing. IBM at the time, same thing, yeah. Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I had heard about Walt Disney, and I heard something about the roots of IBM as well.

[19:09] Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right? Like Audi... [19:13] Volkswagen... [19:15] you know [19:15] all started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Wasn't it a Nazi-owned company? I don't know if they were owned by the Nazis, but they were definitely a German company, yeah. That was one of the craziest things about the Kanye thing, because Kanye lost his contract with Adidas because he had said anti-Semitic things. [19:33] Adidas. [19:35] was started by the Nazis. [19:36] Thank you. [19:37] Wow. [19:38] Which is just like, wow. But that goes to show people can advance and change. Yes. You know, the Red Cross used to not allow black blood. [19:46] And then when they finally allowed black blood, they said, you know, to donate blood. When was this? Back when the Red Cross first started collecting blood. Okay, because, you know, as you know, or you probably know, Charles Drew, [19:58] you know, black scientists, right, was the one who discovered [20:02] how to give blood transfusions. [20:05] Right. So Red Cross began collecting blood and they would not take black blood. And then when they finally took black blood, they segregated the blood. It doesn't matter if it's a black person's blood. You know, you should segregate it by O positive or O negative or whatever it is. Right. But not by the color of someone's skin. That's crazy. [20:24] So they give you books. They kind of indoctrines you. What is it involved in being a member? Yeah. [20:32] Champions are made and legends are tested as UFC 321 brings Tom Aspinall versus Cyril Ghosn to the world. And DraftKings Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of UFC, puts all the action from Abu Dhabi in the palm of your hand. The heavyweight belt is on the line as Aspinall faces Ghosn, but the night doesn't stop there.

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[22:58] with the movement with oh and then you got doxed as a band member well no i i was like your home address and all that stuff my parents uh so i i was going i was going under the name jeff stevens because i didn't want to i wanted to separate my music career from from the movement and also protect my family because i knew this was a movement that people didn't like and that could cause put them in harm's way and um so um i'm on the air and somehow the the host says you know [23:28] drivel which was pretty typical of how I behaved at the time and the woman that was running the show she goes your name is not Jeff Stevens it's Jeff scoop and [23:39] S-C-H-O-E-P. And your mother lives in this town. She's an attorney. She works here. Your father works in manufacturing. He works here. And we're going to call your mother in the next commercial break. And my world just fell apart. And I'm, you know, I look back now and I try not to blame anybody else because these are my choices, my poor choices. So I take responsibility for that. But at 19 years old, that changed my trajectory. I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that [24:09] did you think like wow all these people are mad at me maybe I'm wrong [24:14] No, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you would reflect on that, but I double down. And that's pretty common in that world when someone is faced with that kind of pressure is they double down, they become more entrenched. So it's like every lash of the proverbial whip, anybody that tried to stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system. So I'm thinking I'm going to ruin my band's career now.

[24:44] I shaved my head and then I put all that energy that I had put into music into the movement. I felt like I had no choice. What that did, that doxing, [24:56] It affected my mother's career. So, I mean, this was a – hate has consequences. And hate was like a downward spiral for me. And this is very common for anybody that's involved in it. It separates you from your family, from those you love. It isolates you. [25:13] And – [25:14] What it did to my mother's career is, as I mentioned, she was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge, so she had ran to be a judge. She was elected to be a judge. And in the state of Minnesota, at the time anyways, this was back in the 90s, and there was a formality. And this is the way my mother explained to me at the time. She says, the governor called me, and she said, Mrs. Scoop, your son's a leader in the Nazi party. Your father fought in the German army during the war. I do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state. [25:42] Mm-hmm. So that... [25:45] That was just devastating. That's something I carry that guilt and shame to this day for doing that. But at the time I was like, OK, the system is after my family. That's how I felt. And it just made me double down and become more radical. We did you have a job at the time? Yeah. What did you do for a job? I was doing all kinds of jobs, you know, working in factories and Pizza Hut and, you know, just any anywhere I could. But your main focus was on the movement. [26:12] Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened. Right. And then it became the movement, yeah.

[26:17] and [26:18] So, [26:20] What are the different things that you guys did? So the group would organize social gatherings where people would just hang out and drink and party and give talks, and then there would be formal meetings where people would get dressed up and have these meetings. You would do rallies, one of the first rallies. We was dressed up. [26:41] dressed up in, like, Nazi uniforms. [26:43] Yeah. Like full-on German Nazi uniforms, armbands all do? Yep, back then it was armbands and brown shirts and black ties. Yep. [26:53] Is that you? Yeah. That's the old uniform, yeah. Oh. [26:58] That's crazy. [27:02] So at any time while you were doing this, did you think – [27:05] What am I doing? [27:07] I'm on the wrong path. [27:08] This is crazy. [27:10] No. [27:12] Not until later. When was later? [27:15] Thank you. [27:16] Around the time when I met Daryl Davis. Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life? [27:23] That's a tough one to answer. I was starting to see the humanity in others. Like after I moved to Detroit in December of 07, and – [27:32] Detroit's a majority minority city or people of different races. So I'm having more interactions with people of other races. By 2016, I'd met Daryl Davis. And like I said, I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis. How did you guys meet? It was for a film, for Daryl's film, Accidental Courtesy. Okay, right. So they had reached out and they explained the show. And I said, okay, because any opportunity to spread the propaganda of the movement,

[28:02] was like Jerry Springer or something. So it sounded legit. I agreed to it. [28:06] didn't know I was meeting Daryl. I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate [28:11] this guy because I knew who he was I knew he was pulling people out of the movement and and so this was at a place called Chris's Hot Dogs in Alabama where Hank Williams had written a song it was hey good looking yeah they're right about a waitress right and my girl and I were sitting outside and I'm [28:31] Daryl steps out of a vehicle, and I'm thinking, you know, [28:34] I recognize this guy. He comes up, shakes my hand. We shake hands. And he says, hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff Scoop. And I'm thinking, where do I know that name from? Where do I know his face? It didn't quite register because I'm just thinking about, you know, this debate that we're going to get into. [28:51] And... [28:52] Then after we sat down, it clicked. [28:55] I was like, oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these. [28:58] organizations. So at this point, I'm the head of the National Socialist Movement, and Daryl and I are getting along great. We're talking about music, we're talking about all these kind of things, and it clicks in my head. [29:08] Oh, wow. [29:09] I'm getting along too well with this guy. He's the enemy, you know, or so-called enemy. You know, he's on the other side. So I better step it up here. So I pound my fist on the table and I said, you know, Daryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people. [29:23] Yeah. [29:24] Howard, how would [29:27] Prior to us getting together, the producer and director of the documentary is called Accidental Courtesy. They followed me around the country. I was conducting interviews with KKK members, Black Lives Matter and different people. And they said, do you know Jeff Scoop?

[29:46] And I said, I know who he is. I've never met him. [29:48] would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him? I said, sure. [29:53] So they contacted him. [29:55] And then they let me know, okay, we were down in Alabama at the time. He's going to come down to Alabama. You can interview him tomorrow. And we went to this place called Chris's Hot Dog Stand or Chris's Grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made famous. [30:09] And we're going to do this interview in there. So they said they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and said we're going to get everything set up. We'll have Jeff here, and we're going to film you when you first come in and meet Jeff. [30:25] when we want to catch that on camera, then you'll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him." I said, "Okay, fine." So I go to the hotel, wait for their call. They call and say, "Okay, we're ready." [30:35] So I get in this rental car and I drive to the grill. [30:39] And when I pull up... [30:41] I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front with this girl. [30:45] So I'm thinking, well, that can't be him because he's supposed to be inside sitting in the booth. So I just sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at him, just trying to figure this out. Maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that. [30:54] I'm watching him. He's not going inside. [30:57] So I got out, and when I got out and started walking towards him, I think, you know, that is the dude. I'd never met him, but I knew what he looked like. I said, I wonder why he's out here. So I went over and I said, hey, are you Jeff Scoop? He goes, yeah. I said, I'm Daryl Davis. He introduced me to his lady friend. [31:14] And I said, I thought you were supposed to be inside.

[31:16] it was what i was inside this came out or whatever so we walk in [31:21] Of course, they didn't get to capture the moment that we met, so they were, like, all freaked out and stuff. And we sat down in the booth. [31:28] And I started interviewing him, and as he pointed out, you know, he was getting along too well with me. You know, just chit-chatting, talking about music and this, that, and the other. [31:40] And he's saying, you know, he was a musician. I said, I'm a musician. I said, what kind of music do you like? What kind of music do you play? Well, I play rock. [31:50] And I said, well, you know, rock was invented by black musicians. Oh, let's not go there. You know, Elvis Presley invented rock. No, Elvis did not invent rock, right? I said, Chuck Berry invented rock, right? And he goes, okay, well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do. But what difference does it make? [32:07] you know, what color the musician is. I said, "Well, it doesn't make any difference to me, but obviously it makes a difference to you because, you know, in our history books, we talk about Ben Franklin. Who cares what color Ben Franklin is? You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity, right?" And he goes, "Well, yeah, well, I know about the guy who invented peanut butter." I said, "Okay, I'm serious." And I said, "Okay, what's his name?" He thought about it. He goes, [32:32] Carver, Carver. I said, what's his first name? He said, George Washington Carver. I said, okay, very good. I shook his hand, right? And so then... [32:39] What did you say? [32:41] He, um... [32:42] Thank you. [32:43] You know, he runs the NSM, National Socialist Movement, and the whole white supremacy ideology is called the movement, right? So anyway, I said, well...

[32:53] He goes, you know, [32:54] I said, it's a racist movement. He said, no, it's like a white civil rights movement for white people. He goes, you know, you got the NAACP. And I said, yes. I said, but there are white members of the NAACP. Can I join the NSM? He goes, no. And, you know, I said, well, why not? Well, then it's a racist movement. And then we got into it and he goes, you know, I will fight for the last bullet for my people. I'm like, whoa. He just kind of like, you know, flipped out here. [33:22] I said, okay. Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him? Oh, yeah. Yes. [33:30] That's so funny. Like, I'm keeping my ideology no matter what. Yes. Yes. That's funny. You're not going to trick me by being a cool guy. [33:42] We laugh about it now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out. I would imagine. Yeah, because I realized it. So what year was this? 2016. 2016. [33:52] first year you came on the podcast? [33:54] Oh, gosh. [33:56] Um... [33:58] Kind of around then, right? Yeah, 15 or 16. Yeah. Yeah. [34:03] So how many other different things had you done where he had known about you? [34:09] Had you done a lot of different interviews? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been doing a lot of interviews, magazines. And so you guys were just very aware of anybody who was fucking up the cause. Yeah. [34:22] With their awesome personalities.

[34:27] I mean, think about it. You're in this movement, and you've got a guy that's pulling people out. Right. And he's not just pulling out just anybody. Some of these people are- Grand wizards and shit. Grand wizards, grand dragons, imperial wizards, yeah. Wizards and dragons are fucking hilarious, by the way. So after the thing was over, you know, there- [34:48] meandering around putting their cameras packed up. I pulled Jeff aside. [34:53] and just talk to him, just one-on-one, man-to-man, no cameras, whatever. [34:57] We just talked about a couple of different things, talked about women and this and the other. And just, you know what? [35:04] Guys talk about. Yeah, normal. Yeah. Yeah. [35:06] And we exchange phone numbers. [35:09] And then... [35:10] The following year, 2017, he was involved in that large white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, that turned deadly. [35:21] And I knew a lot of the people who were involved in there, including... [35:35] etc. [35:36] And I've gotten when that Jeff was rethinking. [35:42] you know [35:43] I said, you know what, let me stop reading all this stuff and find out for myself. [35:47] I found his number that he had given me, and fortunately he still had the same number. I called him up. [35:53] And he remembered me, of course, and we chatted on the phone. And then I had...

[35:59] We stayed in contact. [36:01] And then in 2020... [36:05] I had a gig up in New York City. [36:09] And they were, you know, they booked me and said, you know, you know, talk about, you know, how you meet these people and what you all talk about and what they think about this. I said, well, wait a minute. I can tell you about how I meet them and how I go about it. But as far as what they think about stuff, I can tell you. [36:24] But that would be second hand. I'd say, if you want, I can bring people, because every now and then I'd bring a former Klansman that I took out of the movement or whatever to talk, you know, answer questions. I'd say, how about if I just bring somebody? [36:35] You go, whoa. [36:36] You know, we got to clear that with the sponsors or whoever. So they got back to me and said, yeah, you know, who do you want to bring? I said, well, you know, let me give you some options or whatever. So I called Jeff. I said, you know, would you be willing to come out and talk about it? [36:51] you know, your experiences, what got you in, what got you out, et cetera. [36:55] And he said, yeah. [36:57] So I called him back and said, okay, I got this guy. He was the commander of the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country for 25 years. He was a 27-year member of the United States. [37:06] And they said, OK, fine. So I called Jeff back and said, OK, you're on, man. They're going to fly you out to New York and you'll come on. And this is the first time we'd ever done anything together like that. [37:18] where we both are on the same page, right? [37:22] And it went over very, very well, and that was the last gig either of us had before everything got shut down for COVID.

[37:29] Now, when you said this is an ad by BetterHelp. [37:33] We have a lot of big holidays coming up, but before you start preparing for trick-or-treaters or make plans for travel for Thanksgiving, there's one other big day you should focus on. World Mental Health Day. It's October 10th, and if you don't know already, it's a great day to send some love to therapists. Maybe a therapist has made a positive impact on you or someone you love. [38:03] They can help you if there's something keeping you up at night. If you're looking for a safe space, BetterHelp is a good place to start. They've spent the past decade helping people connect with the right professional therapist. And based on the millions of highly rated reviews, it's safe to say they do a great job. BetterHelp does most of the work for you, too. All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire. [38:33] We'll be right back. [38:49] H-E-L-P dot com slash J-R-E. You're both on the same page. [38:56] What do you mean by that? Well, both in the same mindset. He's not...

[39:01] fighting to the last bullet for his people. He's fighting for all people. He realizes that, you know, what he had done [39:08] experience for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member, he no longer wanted to do. And so when exactly was that shift for you? So I broke free from the movement in March of 19th. [39:21] But I was going through this... [39:24] process for several years. So typically you want somebody in like the work that we do, we want someone to disengage from the movement. And then we work on the de-radicalization part. My journey was backwards. So I'm de-radicalizing while I'm still involved. Now, if somebody would have told me that while I was involved, those were the fighting words, you know, but it was basically like, [39:44] And the mind wasn't catching up with what was going on. So that's when I was starting those last years when I was involved. I'm saying this is a white civil rights group. It's not a hate group. You know, and from the outside looking in, you go, man, this guy's insane. Of course, it's a hate group, you know, and I see I see that now, obviously. [40:14] They would say, whoa, this is like a cult and you're like a cult leader. And I'm thinking in my head, what is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? What is with these poor choices? You know what I mean? Like that's a serious cognitive dissonance. [40:29] But that's the thought that goes through your head is like it's not me. So was it initially meeting Daryl that started this journey for you?

[40:38] Yes, it was one of the major major first seats and so but you guys hadn't seen each other quite a while and [40:45] And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective. Well, that and then not long after meeting Daryl, I met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Dia Khan. And in her film, White Right Meeting the Enemy, and I'd gotten to know Dia quite well over the course of that filming. And there was a number of people that left the NSM from interacting with Dia. And she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things. [41:15] It's about asking questions and sharing different perspectives. And that curiosity and that sincerity, it can help restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see people. So like Dia says to me, and this is actually in the film White Wright Meeting the Enemy, you can see the change. Like I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks, and I'll tell the audience, I'll say, take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it. [41:45] eyes. She's saying, you know, the ideology that you, instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me, she says, the ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than. [41:57] ugly. [41:58] not worthy as a child growing up. That's how I felt. That's how your ideology made me feel. And, [42:05] No one aside from Daryl Davis had ever approached me with anything like that. I was told I was wrong.

[42:12] but that human connection. [42:15] When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I'd lost my humanity a long time ago. [42:21] And what Daryl and Dia did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion, and I could see their humanity. Daryl did something very similar. He told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. [42:34] That hurt. You know, I mean, I'm not going to say it at the time when I'm still in the movement, but on the inside, it really hurt. That bothered me. It's like this is not this noble grand cause that I believed it was if it's causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people. So what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the movement? [42:52] I hate to try everything, and I beat myself up over that a lot, but I kept saying it's a white civil rights group. I'm telling every press outlet I'm sitting down with when they're in it, don't call it a Nazi group. It's a white civil rights organization. Of course, most of them wouldn't publish that because it is what it is. But I'm going through these different changes. I'm having rules put into the organization where the last couple of years they changed from the swastika and the public view to using an old runic symbol, the Ota Rune. [43:22] And today they switch back. They use the swastika again. But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group. As my own beliefs were shifting, I was trying to shift that into the party. And eventually I was like, because as a man, I thought, I'm going to fix this. I got to fix this. This mistake that I made, this terrible movement, I've got to fix it. And there's no fixing it. All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig, dressing up the Nazi party, trying to make it look pretty. It still is what it is.

[43:52] - Yeah, I'm actually, [43:54] after... [43:55] 2019 rolls around, I was like, I just have to... [43:58] I have to get away from this. This is not right. I can't. And what was the response within the movement when you left? [44:04] Not so good. Not so good. You can leave these organizations and it depends. Different groups operate different ways. What I was involved in was above ground. So it's mostly legal. You've got underground groups that operate a little bit differently. They'll come after you and things like that. You can leave. But if you walk away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor basically to that cause. [44:34] by the end of late 2019, it was August or September of 19, I started speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism. So this is before you did that event with Darryl? [44:46] Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was already out. And so how were you denouncing the movement? Where were you doing this? I did a press release and a website and made it public because that's... [44:58] that would be seen and understood. Now, were you concerned at all about retaliation? [45:03] about you being attacked or them coming for you? [45:07] There's always those concerns, but I don't try to dwell on those things. I was in a high-stress, dangerous environment for a lot of years, so this is just another kind of high-stress environment. But I don't want people to be afraid to leave.

[45:22] There's no reason to be afraid to leave, you know. I mean, obviously, you've got to be aware of your surroundings and wise to it, but I've [45:30] I'm always prepared. And when you were leaving, when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you? [45:41] A lot of people came with me. The National Socialist Movement was the largest neo-Nazi organization of its kind when I left. [45:48] Today it's quite small. It's barely hanging on. People in this movement began emailing me, people I didn't even know. [45:56] and ask me [45:57] is this true because he'd mentioned my name or whatever else and i said yeah next thing you know they're leaving and i'd call him i said you know do you know so and so [46:06] Yeah, he was in my movement. I said, well, he called me or he emailed me and wants to get out. [46:12] Wow. So how many people do you think left? [46:15] Oh, hundreds left. Hundreds left. How many are in? [46:19] How big is the movement in total? We never had a solid number on it, but over the years I could tell you there was thousands and thousands of people that were involved. And then we would work with other organizations. So I spoke at Klan functions, Skinhead functions, other white nationalist organizations functions. So because I was that high profile in that world and I was the most high profile person. [46:45] white nationalists to ever walk away in the United States. So I felt like- Not just walk away, but denounce. Denounce. And completely shift your perspective.

[46:54] So I felt like I needed to do something right to make up for the damage that I had done. And this is one way to do it is to help other people break free and get out of that world. And so is this a continual process? Do other people from the movement now start to read your stuff and see you speak and then – [47:10] And you also have a book out. Just tell everybody. It's called American Nazi, From Hate to Humanity. [47:16] And there it is. [47:19] Did you do an audio version of this? [47:20] It's in the works. Okay. Yeah, it's not out yet. So do more people continue to reach out to you that are in the movement because of this and try to get out as well? Absolutely. And we're helping people all the time. Daryl and I both are helping people all the time get out. And it's because of that presence that I had there, a lot of people will say, you know, I... [47:41] I knew him then or I knew of him. So they'll they'll feel comfortable in reaching out. So it's kind of like street cred, I guess, you know, like, like if you were an alcoholic for 20 years. [47:51] and you know that you have a more of an ability to help other yes yes another thing you know [47:58] people like Jeff and people of that status, the high status, [48:03] It takes, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out [48:10] if they can leave. [48:11] Because that's their job. [48:13] In Jeff's case... [48:14] he that was his job for twenty five out of the twenty seven years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in he brought in numerous people so number one

[48:26] How do you go back to those people and say, "I was wrong"? [48:29] You know, you got all this power. Everybody looks up to you. You're their leader. [48:32] Right. They're a cult leader, as your girlfriends would tell you. [48:38] Thanks, Darrell. [48:41] But so, you know, that weighs on you. [48:43] And then, you know, that is your full time job while you're in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise, T-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, etc. [48:59] so now [49:00] You're leaving. [49:02] How are you going to pay your bills? How are you going to support your family? All that kind of thing. You need a job. [49:07] Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you going to put on your resume when you go to apply for a job? I was a Nazi leader for the last 25 years. Right. [49:17] Right. So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some kind of outside support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, that I provide because, you know, you talk to somebody and you give them another perspective and they leave. You can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business. Right. Because, you know, they... [49:35] They have to belong to something or enter into society. And they can't go back. They've already betrayed society. [49:43] you know, their quote-unquote family. [49:46] So they're going to find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support. And what support do you provide them? [49:53] the shoulder to talk to, connect them. I brought him to New York, had him speak to crowds. And an interesting thing happened. I want you to tell the story about Duke.

[50:03] Um... [50:05] Show him to other people, let him know, hey, Darrell Davis is not an exception. [50:10] because what I need to do [50:14] i find oftentimes is that when i become friends with these people [50:18] And they... [50:19] the mentality becomes... [50:21] You know, you know, [50:22] Darrell's okay for a black guy. It's all those other black people or all those other Jewish people, you know, that kind of thing. So when I feel I can trust. [50:30] that individual, right? [50:32] They're not going to bring harm. I'm not I'm not concerned about myself, but I know that they're not going to bring harm to friends of mine or other people. Then I will invite them to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends and my other black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them, but don't agree with them. [50:48] So that way they can see I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception. [50:53] because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do. [50:57] Right. Now, were you doing that for money? Were you running the movement? Was that your job? Job? Or did you have another job as well? For a lot of years, I was basically running the record label of the movement, and that was my job as well. Oh, the movement has a record label? Yes. White Power Rock. Yeah. Oh, Christ. Yeah, so that was my job, yeah. [51:21] So you had to find another job, too. Yeah. And you have to... [51:24] find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi. [51:27] Former Nazi. Former. Recently. Get it right, Joe. Come on. Come on, Joe. Recently, though. I mean, it's tough on a resume. Yeah.

[51:34] What did you wind up doing for work? [51:35] Um, it was tough. It was tough for a while. Now I help get people out of extremist groups. I speak all over the country, all over the world. I've spoke at, I've been at Nobel with the Nobel Peace Center with the Acon. I just got back from Australia, did a book tour over there. I've spoke at combat anti-Semitism movement. Today, I do a lot of work with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, educating young people. I've done stuff even with the government. [52:05] I've advised other governments as well on extremism. So this is what I do now. What did you do right away though? [52:13] Like, what was the first thing she did? [52:15] I really had to do a lot of self work, a lot of processing. [52:21] It was... What did you do to make a living? I didn't. I was living off my savings. Yeah. [52:27] yeah [52:29] Are you familiar with Simon Wiesenthal? Yes. Okay. So Jeff now works with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. [52:37] That's a complete 180. [52:38] you know he was most famous you know Nazi hunter I knew Simon Wiesenthal oh really I've been doing this for 45 years [52:44] and back in the nineteen eighties I went to Vienna Austria which is where he lives and I had dinner with Simon Wiesenthal. Wow. Yeah and picked his brain. [52:53] How old was he back then? He was old back then. Yeah, I'm not sure. Let's talk about Service Titan. Over 10,000 contractors already run their businesses on Service Titan. Now they're building an AI trained on real trades workflows. This isn't generic AI. This is AI built specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more.

[53:23] revenue automatically. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. This episode is brought to you by ShipStation. When your company's growing fast, order fulfillment can make or break your success. ShipStation's intelligence-driven platform brings order management, rate shopping, and [53:51] inventory and returns, warehouse systems, and comprehensive analytics all in one place, saving customers 15 hours per week on fulfillment. ShipStation compares rates across all major global carriers, including USPS, UPS, and FedEx, plus your own discounted rates if you have them to find you the best shipping option on every order with discounts up to 90% off. There's a [54:21] Trust ShipStation. Try ShipStation free for 60 days with full access to all features, no credit card needed. Go to ShipStation.com and use the code JRE for 60 days free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That's ShipStation.com, code JRE. How old he was? He was probably maybe in his 70s, maybe. You know a fun fact? [54:51] But if Wernher von Braun, the head guy from NASA that got us to the moon, if he was alive today, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said they would prosecute him for crimes against humanity. Wow, I did not know that. He was a legit Nazi.

[55:05] Yeah, Operation Paperclip. The United States brought over all the best Nazi rocket scientists to... [55:12] structure our rocket program. [55:15] Yeah. [55:15] Fun fact. [55:16] A lot of people don't know that, but that's true. Well, they all had those dueling scars on their faces, too. So when I got Jeff to do the... [55:27] thing up in New York. He asked me, you know, is this open to the public? [55:31] And I said, yeah, you know, anybody can come. And he goes, yeah, I'm inviting a friend of mine who lives in New York. [55:38] he was my chief of security. [55:41] you know, while I was in the movement, you know, and now he's out. [55:45] And so... [55:47] You go ahead and tell that. This is an amazing story. Right. So it's okay to say his name because he's public out with it. But this is Duke Schneider. He was my chief of security for a long time. And he had left the movement before I did. And his story was, you know, it's a love, conquer, hate story. So he had some kind of thyroid issues, cancer in his thyroid, and he was in the hospital. And his father's nurse was a woman by the name of Catherine. [56:17] lady and she was there with Duke in the hospital and and he's like Catherine you don't have to stay here at the hospital with me you know you can you can leave you don't need I might be here for a while and she says I'm not leaving your side I'm going to be here in this hospital until you walk up out of here and you're better I'm going to stay here you know so don't argue with me I'm going to

[56:37] At that moment, Duke looks to her and he says, when I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I'm going to marry you. And they have been married ever since. And this is one of the, I mean, this couple, if you see them, you'd swear they're just like high school sweethearts. They're just amazing, amazing people. There's Duke Schneider, yes. [56:57] That's crazy. [56:58] Wow. [57:01] So, you know, this goes to show, Joe, I mean, we all... [57:05] You, Jeff, me, anybody we know, when we were kids, we were told... [57:09] A tiger does not change its stripes. A leopard does not change its spots. That's who they are. [57:13] And that is true. [57:14] So why would we think that a Nazi or a neo-Nazi or a Klansman would change their robe and hood or their swastika armband or something like that? [57:22] Well, that's where we're wrong. [57:23] the the stripes [57:25] and spots on the tiger and lion, [57:27] are immutable characteristics. They're born with those. They can't change them. [57:31] But the Klan robe and hood and the swastika are... [57:35] are acquired. [57:36] That's learned behavior. [57:38] And what can be learned can be unlearned. [57:40] Jeff is an example of that. Duke Snyder is an example of that. And when I first got into wanting to meet these people, [57:49] I wasn't trying to get anybody out. [57:51] And I still don't really try to get people out. [57:54] I just want an answer to that question that plagued me from the age of 10. How can you hate me if you don't even know me? Just tell me that and then you go your way, I go my way. [58:03] But what happened was... [58:05] during the conversation, you know, you start off this far apart on the ideological spectrum, you talk to somebody for five minutes,

[58:12] that gap narrows because you found something in common. You keep on talking, now you're here. [58:17] you found more in common at this point you're having a cordial relationship with your adversary you know you might not be going out to dinner with him or whatever but you have a cordial relationship keep on talking [58:28] and you found more in common and now it's like a friendship you don't agree on everything but you have found more in common than you have in contrast and the trivial things that you found in contrast like [58:38] skin color or whether you go to a church or synagogue, a mosque or a temple, begin to matter less and less because it's caused a cognitive dissonance. And so when the first person left, [58:49] I thought this person, this is a fluke. This guy probably wasn't invested in it fully. But then it happened again and again and again. And I thought, okay, well now, something I must be doing when I'm interviewing these people is back when I was writing my first book. What am I doing? [59:07] And I narrowed it down to about five core values. [59:10] that everybody wants between traveling with my parents as a child in the uh... you know u_s_ state department foreign services diplomats uh... [59:19] and now traveling as an adult musician and lecturer [59:23] I've told you before, I've been to all 50 states. [59:25] I've been to 64 countries on 6 continents. [59:28] And I can tell you this. [59:29] no matter how far I've gone from our country right next door to Canada, right next door to Mexico, or halfway around the globe, [59:36] no matter who I meet, maybe around the world, they don't look like me or speak my language or worship as I do or not worship at all.

[59:43] I've always concluded that every person I've met is a human being. [59:47] And as such, every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. [59:54] We all want to be respected. We want to be heard. We want to be treated fairly and truthfully. And we want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we're unfamiliar or uncomfortable, we're not going to be able to apply those five core values. [1:00:16] I'll guarantee you, [1:00:17] that your navigation of that society, that culture, that situation, [1:00:21] will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive. And so that's what was happening, because these people had been interviewed before, but they didn't leave. [1:00:30] So that, you know, is how you talk to people, more so than what you say to people and how you listen to them, you know. And when I say respect, it doesn't mean that I respect what they're saying. [1:00:42] I'm respecting their right to say it. [1:00:45] right right and so I think you know that's been one of the key things that worked with with Jeff and worked with other people and when it started happening more and more I realized I stumbled onto something [1:00:56] And I needed to keep doing this. And that's why I'm still doing it. [1:00:59] today and Jeff and I go out you know oftentimes we know we just came back from Indianapolis a few weeks ago we were in Orlando [1:01:07] speaking to the Holocaust Center there and wherever else. [1:01:11] When you look back on your life And you think about

[1:01:16] the enormous amount of time he spent in the movement and [1:01:20] now being... [1:01:21] essentially of a completely different mindset. What does that feel like for you when you look back on yourself? [1:01:27] It's like two different people. So like a lot of times when I'll speak about that life, I'll say that was my... [1:01:33] past life. [1:01:34] I know it's not my past life. It's still the same life. But it... [1:01:38] It is like looking back at a different person. Like when I started doing work with the Wiesenthal Center, one of the things was after talks, a lot of people in the Jewish community were like, I don't get it. You're such a nice guy. I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. So we started showing video clips of my speeches and things that I did when I was in the movement ahead of those things. And I was always – and then people were like, oh, now I get it because they could see it. [1:02:08] the person is not the person nice guy that they met but that's who I was so [1:02:15] And I always try to get out of showing those clips. I'm like, could I be backstage or somewhere else? Because I don't want to look at it. It's hard to, I mean, I can look at it. Obviously, I do it all the time. But it's tough. It's tough because it's like, man. Does it feel shame? Shame, guilt. You just feel terrible about it. So I think that drives a lot of the work that I'm doing now is to help others and to repair some of that damage that's been done.

[1:02:46] to understand that [1:02:47] You know, someone can shift their mindset. [1:02:51] and that just because someone has a hateful [1:02:54] evil ideology they've attached themselves to doesn't mean they're a hateful, evil person inherently. It's learned behavior and learned thinking. And this is the problem with human beings is we're incredibly malleable. [1:03:08] You know, human beings are... [1:03:10] We follow the leader and we adopt ideologies and [1:03:14] We're also very tribal. So you become a part of a group, whether you call it a family or a team or whatever, you hate the other people. [1:03:23] Because they're the enemy now. It's us against them. And we're all in this together. And that unites everybody that's a part of the movement. And it makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger. [1:03:32] Yep. [1:03:34] Yeah, it's a trap. It's a terrible trap. And it's a trap that human beings can easily fall into. And you see it with political ideologies. You see it with religion. You see it with everything. I mean, people just – we are very tribal. And that can manifest itself in some very – [1:03:52] disgusting thinking. I want to add something to that. [1:03:56] I think you're 100% right for the most part, but [1:04:00] The tribal thing never came into play with me, nor did it come into play with other people who were raised the way I did. [1:04:11] I was. [1:04:12] Um, [1:04:14] I first started traveling abroad overseas at the age of three in 1961. I was born in 58, so I'm 67 now.

[1:04:22] And my first introduction to school was abroad. The State Department assigns you to the American embassy in some foreign country for two years. And then you come back home at the end of the two years. You're here for a few months, maybe a year. And then you're back over to another foreign country for two years, back and forth, back and forth. My dad's job as a U.S. diplomat was to foster better relations between a foreign country and our U.S. government, right? So which is why, you know, we're overseas. So my first introduction to school was abroad. I did... [1:04:50] kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. The in-between grades I would do back home here. [1:04:58] right? [1:04:59] My classmates abroad, and we're talking about the 1960s, [1:05:04] My classmates abroad [1:05:06] were from all over the world. Because anybody who had... [1:05:10] an embassy station where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia, that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan, you know? [1:05:22] If you open the door to my classroom and look in, you would say, oh, you know, this is a United Nations of little children. That's exactly what it was. [1:05:28] That became my baseline [1:05:30] for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come home [1:05:35] I would either be in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in [redacted address], schools did not integrate overnight. It took years and years. And even in some places today, in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration, right?

[1:05:56] So, [1:05:58] that became my norm you know this multicultural thing i didn't know tribes [1:06:03] Everybody was part of my tribe. And that's why I didn't understand racism. [1:06:07] Because, you know, if I had grown up here my whole life and my first experience with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of 10 and in a parade, maybe I wouldn't be doing this work today. Maybe I would be, oh, I'm going to stay away from those color of people. Right. You know, that kind of thing. So I didn't know tribalization simply because of my experience. [1:06:29] uh... my growing up experience very unique experience exactly and most americans didn't have that now today you know and back then [1:06:37] You know, you buy your kids, you're talking about 1960s, you buy your kids dolls. I had G.I. Joe dolls, right? You know, I don't have any siblings, but you know, my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls. And back then, all the G.I. Joes were white. [1:06:52] all the Barbie dolls were white. [1:06:54] so black kids had to play with little white dolls there was nothing that looked like them today you have you know all kinds of color of dolls and nationalities and ethnicities which [1:07:05] broadens the scope. [1:07:07] of these children. So when they see the real deal walking down the street, you know, [1:07:11] Well, that's my favorite doll, so I'm okay with that person, rather than you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents. [1:07:21] um [1:07:22] Yeah, well, that makes sense, and it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do.

[1:07:28] You know, like as a person who did grow up around so many different people. [1:07:32] So I try to share that, I guess, vicariously with people. [1:07:36] Jeff, did you grow up around, I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people? [1:07:45] Yeah, so where I grew up is like in the middle of a cornfield, basically. I grew up in a little town. It was [1:07:50] barely a thousand people, all white basically. The only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime, like when farm workers would come up from Mexico and things like that. And a lot of times people just didn't talk to them. So I didn't really have in any, hardly any interactions with people of other races. So where did the negative ideas about other races come from? The movement. [1:08:14] It came from the movement. All from the movement, not from personal experience at all. Nope, I did not have bad personal experiences. In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I had with other people, I mean, I've had assassination attempts, I've got scars from attacks, all white people. [1:08:29] And this is assassination. Is this post leaving or during during during during? Why are they trying to kill you? [1:08:36] Well, Antifa tried to get me the scar across the back of my head. It was from a tire iron. [1:08:42] What happened there? It was they infiltrated the organization, and we had went to a – and this is in my book, American Nazi, by the way. But we had went to Rochester, Minnesota to pass out leaflets, and it was myself and my roommate and then two other guys that had infiltrated. And at the end of the night, to make a long story short, I'm reaching into the trunk of a car.

[1:09:12] merchandise from the record label. [1:09:16] the guy, [1:09:17] pulls out a tire iron and smashes me across the back of the head and says, we're here to kill you. [1:09:24] And it felt like being scalped. The whole back of my head was, scalp was hanging down. And I just, I didn't get knocked out. I would have been killed if I would have been knocked out. I just remember stumbling, putting my hand across the back of my head, and it felt like a wet sponge. And just kind of staggering. And my roommate blocked another hit because the guy tried to hit me again because I didn't go down. [1:09:47] And by that time, I'm just kind of, you know, stunned, staggering, concussion, whatever you want to call it, and started stumbling into traffic in the middle of the street. And then, you know, he had gotten away from the guy and pulled me off to the other side of the street and... [1:10:04] Yeah, that was that was one incident. [1:10:07] So there's multiple times people try to kill you? I've been shot at. Yeah. [1:10:11] I've had stabbing. People try to stab me too. This is also why you're in the movement. Oh, yeah. [1:10:16] And who was shooting at him? [1:10:18] Gangs? [1:10:20] Yeah. [1:10:22] So people that had just found out that you guys were Nazis and they just tried to shoot you? Well, we were – I mean, we were wearing the symbols everywhere. Like, I mean, flight jackets with swastika patches and stuff like that. So, I mean, that was going to be a – that was – [1:10:34] pretty volatile, especially in different neighborhoods. When you talk to other people that have left the movement, do they have like,

[1:10:43] Is there a pivotal moment in a lot of these people's lives where they realize that this was the wrong path? Is it an accumulation of other people's experiences that they take into consideration? Is there a main factor that they're doing? [1:10:59] It really is different for everybody, but usually it doesn't happen like a snap of a finger, you know, like, [1:11:04] I could, you know, like we were talking about hundreds of people have left the movement. I can think of just like... [1:11:10] on one hand, the people that have left over like one act of kindness or one simple thing. Very few people do that. It's usually a process. So they're going through this shift in thinking kind of like I was, and they're questioning it. They're questioning like, well... [1:11:24] So there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. There's a lot of confirmation bias that takes place. And they're having experiences sometimes with people of other races that helps, you know, where it doesn't fit the narrative of the movement, what's being spewed. So they're fighting with this in their head for a long time. For different people, it's different things. Sometimes it's just seeing the humanity in the people that you want to dehumanize. Yeah. [1:11:47] Thank you. [1:11:49] Thank you. [1:11:51] Daryl, this is such a heavy path you're on. Does it... [1:11:55] I know it must feel very rewarding, but... [1:11:58] But interacting with so many people that have been indoctrinated into hate – [1:12:03] Does it sometimes feel overwhelming? [1:12:05] Thank you. [1:12:07] - - [1:12:08] No, it doesn't. I mean, I've had some disappointments, you know, people...

[1:12:14] Not everybody's going to change. Right. You know, on either side, black, white, you know. Have you had people that were close? They were close to shifting and they fell back in their own ways? It's like alcoholics who fall off the wagon. Right. You know, that kind of thing. But I've had some who I never thought would change. I mean, there'll be people who are on all sides who will go to their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, anti-Semitic. [1:12:37] But even some of those... [1:12:39] I've had come back and change, but I know not all would do it. Some would just die hard, you know. They're not going to change for anything. [1:12:47] And so I don't give up on those people, but I move them down my list of priorities and deal with the ones who are open to talking. Even though they're just as hateful and violent and racist or whatever, if they will talk, there's an opportunity to plant a seed. The seed's not going to bloom overnight. [1:13:04] you know, so [1:13:07] When it happens... [1:13:08] Great. Then I moved my way down to the ones who didn't want to talk to me or we got into some kind of scuffle or whatever, things like that. [1:13:18] But as I was telling you before, [1:13:20] When their buddies change and they see that life improve, sometimes it's a wake-up call for them. [1:13:27] Because, you know, the... [1:13:29] Initially, they think there's nothing this black guy can do that's going to help them. Who the hell is he to even think about? [1:13:35] you know I'm the superior one he's the inferior one but when they compare their life to their to their buddies life [1:13:42] And now he's superior. He's living superiorly and getting along fine. You know, I want that. Right. So now they come around. And for some people, it's something staggering. You know, like I can think of I'm just thinking of a couple of the cases that I've worked on. And like one guy, his son committed suicide and he had brought his whole family into the movement. And he felt like it was the ideology that did that. And that's what helped shift him. And this was a lifelong guy like this guy's in his 60s. You know, he'd been in forever. I would have never like Daryl said, never.

[1:14:12] think some people are going to change, and he changed. And there's another family that I helped out this last year, and they've got 11 kids under the age of 18. And they started, for them, it was seeing how [1:14:24] it was affecting their children. A lot of them, some of them have, you know, disabilities and things like that. And they were seeing how the quality of life, you know, being involved in this, it's heavy. It's a great burden. It's not, and it's not something that you wish on your children. It's not something that you want. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here and the watch parties will be going back to back to back. But don't worry. Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered. [1:14:54] with 30% off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy, delivered straight to your door like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread. Order in so you can stay locked in on the game. All the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. [1:15:24] For 30% off entire order, taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July 5th. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. This episode is brought to you by Tecovas. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you got to check out Tecovas. Their Western boots are sturdy and clearly built to last, but really sharp and premium too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box.

[1:15:54] great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever. And they're versatile, too. You can wear them with jeans, dress them up or down, whatever you need. Tecovis has all the classic leathers like cowhide and goat, but they've got all the exotics, too, for when you want to level up your look. [1:16:13] If you've been thinking about your next pair of boots or, hey, even your first pair, go check out Tecovas in-store or online at tecovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com slash Rogan when you sign up for email and texts. Them to move forward with. So for them, it was seeing how their children were affected. [1:16:38] Well, having children also just changes your... [1:16:41] understanding of people. [1:16:43] You start realizing... [1:16:44] like [1:16:45] babies learn from their environment and they're all you know really innocent they come out of the womb just innocent and you see them grow up and evolve and they realize like how much of what makes you a human being is just learned [1:16:58] Learned behavior. [1:16:59] Yep. [1:17:00] Yeah. [1:17:02] Darrell, you're still a working musician. So how much of your time is dedicated to helping people leave these movements? It seems pretty significant. Yeah, it's really flipped around a lot. When I first started this... [1:17:17] It was like maybe... [1:17:19] 75% music, 25% other, you know, this work. But now it's probably the exact opposite now.

[1:17:27] I just take the gigs that I want to do. [1:17:29] If it's something that I feel like playing, I'll take it. I've turned down more gigs in the last few years than I have accepted. [1:17:37] And does this feel right to you or do you sometimes wish that someone else would like carry the baton? Well, you know, I wish people would carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I've done. [1:17:51] I'm just one person. [1:17:54] um, [1:17:55] But, and there's always room for improvement. Somebody can, you know, take my template and make amends to it or whatever. I would hope, you know, people would be inspired to do that. And there have been some. [1:18:05] Thank you. [1:18:06] But I mean, would you rather have more time for your music? Well, I'll put it this way. [1:18:12] music is my profession for sure, but improving race relations is my obsession. And I would much rather, much rather, [1:18:20] be on stage playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and clapping their hands. [1:18:26] than going to a Klan rally and watching people in robes and hoods march around a burning cross yelling, white power. [1:18:34] You laugh, but that's what I do. I know. I mean, it's crazy that you do that and have any feeling of safety while you're there. [1:18:45] Well... [1:18:47] I mean, there are people who don't want me there and they resent it and they get into it with their leaders and their leaders end up banishing them and stuff. [1:18:54] But, you know, Jeff can tell you, you know, because he's been to a lot of Klan things as well as his own organization.

[1:19:00] is run kind of like a paramilitary. So you have two kinds of rallies. [1:19:04] You have public rallies and you have private rallies. [1:19:07] so a public rally is you know you wanna have your clan rally or your Nazi rally over here in the park on Main Street [1:19:14] So you gotta go to City Hall or wherever and apply for a permit, right? That's public rights, that's public park. So anybody can come. You can come, I can come, whatever. [1:19:22] Now, if there's potential for violence or whatever, [1:19:25] there's going to be a barricade of police [1:19:27] in between. [1:19:28] the ralliers and the protesters. So they can't, [1:19:31] meet each other, right? You can yell and scream over the police head, right? But if it's in some rural place, like he's talking about in rural Minnesota, [1:19:39] Um, [1:19:41] You know, anybody, everybody can go. There's not a whole lot of police presence. [1:19:44] It's mostly white people. [1:19:46] And, uh... [1:19:47] But if it's a private rally, it's on private property. One of the members might have a farm. [1:19:53] Okay, you know, we can have the rally on my farm. [1:19:56] Well, you just can't walk on somebody's farm unless you're invited. So you have to be invited by one of the higher-ups. [1:20:01] in his case, the commander, in the clan case, the imperial wizard or the grand dragon. And so... [1:20:07] If it's like a Simon says, [1:20:09] If the leader invites somebody, [1:20:13] then all the members have to respect that you don't bother that person, whether you like it or not. [1:20:18] You know, otherwise, you know, you're going to you'll suffer some consequences. And why would those leaders invite you? [1:20:23] Curiosity. I treated them fairly. I applied those five core values. [1:20:28] I'm writing a book. [1:20:30] I need to know what goes on at a rally. You all say, you know, you don't do anything malicious or whatever. Well, show me.

[1:20:37] you know let me let me come see the rally like if you're gonna write a book on football you can you you can go to the library and get tons of books and research and write it and have never gone to a football game right right okay but if you really wanna you know right an accurate one and [1:20:52] from personal experience you need to go see a football game so how am i going to write a book on the clan from a to z without ever seeing a clan rally right so that's why i want to go and i explained that to them and [1:21:03] You know, I said, okay, you know, so I've been to both private and, uh, [1:21:06] And public. Who's easier to convert, Klan people or Nazi people? [1:21:11] Um, [1:21:13] I would say probably Klan people. [1:21:17] They are... [1:21:20] depending upon the individual groups, because I don't want to say that a white supremacist of any group, [1:21:25] or even individual racists is stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. [1:21:29] You know, they come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, et cetera. But the Nazi movements, not so much the skinheads. The skinheads are very disorganized, disjointed. They go off the rails. They don't listen to anybody, you know, within their own command or whatever, where the Klan does have some respect for their – or a lot of respect for their higher-ups, you know, the Great Titan, the Grand Dragon, the Imperial Wizard, et cetera. [1:21:59] But the Nazi movements, a lot of the larger ones like his, his former movement, [1:22:04] It's very militarily run, and there are quick consequences if you step out of line.

[1:22:11] Mm. [1:22:12] So, you know, I don't like Joe Rogan on my rally ground, but my Grand Dragon wants him here. [1:22:18] I'm going to be cool. I'm not going to say a word to him. I'm just going to stand over there because I know if he gets in my face, I might say something, and then I'm going to get banished or whatever. So it's very much run like a military in a lot of ways. Yes. Did you guys train? Did you have training exercises and different things that you did? Yeah. Later on in the group, there was paramilitary training. There was a rank structure, so people liked the military, and it was very, very controlled in that sense. [1:22:48] preparing for. [1:22:50] In these movements, they believe that the United States government is going to collapse, whether that's through a race war or civil war or anything like that. And this goes far right, far left. Most extremist groups have this or even, you know, the jihadi type religious extremism. They have this idea that they're going to rise up and be the leaders of the future tomorrow. So so groups like this prepare, you know, so they do like, you know, what you call like militia training, I guess. [1:23:17] So now, interestingly enough, right? [1:23:21] He mentioned the word militia. [1:23:23] So when you have... [1:23:25] Very subtle nuance here. [1:23:28] When you have a bunch of white guys [1:23:30] who go out in the woods and practice shooting and they're in their camouflage and practice survival skills and all that kind of stuff. [1:23:39] They're called militias.

[1:23:41] But when you have black guys, black groups that do the same thing, they're not called militias. They're called militants. [1:23:47] But it's the same thing. But the word militant [1:23:50] has more of a negative connotation [1:23:53] than the word militia. [1:23:56] Really? Yeah. Interesting. Who's using these terms? By whose standard? [1:24:02] by the general public stand, especially white people. We use those terms. They'll refer to Blatts as being militant. Well, you very rarely hear about, when you hear about militias, it's usually kooky white people. It's usually like white people in Idaho or some groups outside of Coeur d'Alene. Right, and the Aryan Nations. Yeah, the people in Washington State. But also Michigan, where his state, they have a lot of militias in Michigan. [1:24:28] Timothy McVeigh. [1:24:30] You know, part of a militia. [1:24:33] you know, and there are other ones and they have different names [1:24:36] to cover up like he used Jeff Stevens to cover the thing. Like there was a Klan group out of Texas, it was the [1:24:45] what was it, something, ambulance service. [1:24:49] You know, just a store window name to cover up the real... [1:24:54] organization. [1:24:55] But [1:24:56] Speak to... [1:24:58] to the recruitment. Today, I mean, [1:25:00] These groups have always... [1:25:03] you know, since the beginning of time or the beginning of their inception have always recruited. [1:25:08] law enforcement [1:25:10] and military people into the ranks of the group.

[1:25:13] But now it's even more concentrated where they really are going after a lot of law enforcement. [1:25:20] and military, especially those people, veterans, [1:25:23] who've only been in the military, Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy, whatever, for two years. [1:25:31] They feel that if somebody's in there for more than two years, they've become loyal to the government. [1:25:36] So you really can't, it's harder to pull them. [1:25:39] um, [1:25:40] And then... [1:25:41] At the two-year point, these people have... [1:25:44] training. They have training in weaponry and bomb making, explosives and survival skills, all that kind of stuff, which is what these people want to prepare them. So, you know, [1:25:56] You know, you all served overseas and fought for the country over there. Now, why don't you come fight for our country right here? You know, because this is going on in our cities. You know, look what's happening in Washington, D.C., and Chicago. The Jews and the blacks are taking over and da-da-da-da. Come fight for us here, you know, domestically. And so they get lured in, and then they learn these weapons skills. Because, you know, and then they turn into lone wolves. Yeah. [1:26:21] That's why we're seeing so many lone wolves. [1:26:24] But what's actually going on here, Joe, [1:26:26] is this. I learned this back in 19... [1:26:30] 82. [1:26:31] All right? [1:26:32] Let me go back a little further than 1982. 1974. [1:26:39] I'm age 15, in the 10th grade, sophomore in high school. [1:26:43] And we had a class called the POTC.

[1:26:46] which stood for problems of the 20th century. Had a great teacher. It was a class for seniors, 12th graders, but I was taken as a 10th grader. He'd bring in different controversial speakers, talk about... [1:26:57] different abortion, you know, all kinds of controversial things back then. [1:27:02] And one day, he brought in the head of the American Nazi Party. All right? Now... [1:27:08] As Jeff pointed out, the Nazi Party was founded by a fellow named George Lincoln Rockwell. And by the way, one of Rockwell's daughters who long ago disowned her father was a teacher at my school. [1:27:20] but a lot of people didn't know that. But anyway... [1:27:24] George McEnrockwell was murdered [1:27:26] by one of his own Nazis, a guy named John Paltor. He got into it. It was founded [1:27:31] about 35 minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia. [1:27:34] And John Potter shot and killed Rockwell out there on the street on Wilson Boulevard. [1:27:39] So Rockwell's right-hand guy... [1:27:41] was a guy named Matt Cole, K-O-E-H-L. [1:27:45] And on this day in 1974, [1:27:48] Matt Cole and his right-hand guy, [1:27:50] They're the heads of the American Nazi Party now after Rockwell. Came to my school, to my class. [1:27:56] and they spoke to my class. Now you can never do that today, you know, but I'm glad we were able to do that back in 1974. You know, I... [1:28:03] I wish that kind of thing would happen today so people can see what's freedom of speech and all that. [1:28:09] Matt Cole pointed at me. [1:28:11] and pointed at another black kid in my class. [1:28:13] and said, "We're going to ship you back to Africa." And then he went like this, "And all you Jews out there, you're going back to Israel."

[1:28:20] Now, I'm 15 years old. I just sat there, like, looking at the guy, like, what on earth is this man talking about? I didn't say anything to him. [1:28:27] But one of my classmates was a girl, piped up and said, well, they live here. What if they don't want to go? [1:28:33] And Matt Cole said, "Oh, [1:28:35] They have no choice. [1:28:36] If they do not leave voluntarily, they will be exterminated in the upcoming race war. [1:28:41] that was the first time I ever heard the term race war. Now, I was already fascinated by racism since I was 10 years old, right? But [1:28:48] the race war, what is this man talking about? Right? And so, [1:28:53] I began buying books and all kinds of stuff, learning different terminology for it, which will come later. Like, for example, the white supremacists, they have two terms for the race war. One is Rahoa. [1:29:04] R-A-H-O-W-A, Rahowa, which are the first two letters of three words, racial holy war. Also, they call it the boogaloo. [1:29:13] So if you hear that term, they're not talking about the 1960s dance music. They're talking about the race war. [1:29:19] And so – [1:29:21] Matt Cole talked about the race war. [1:29:23] Well, [1:29:24] I graduated [1:29:26] Two years later, 1976 from high school, I graduated from college [1:29:30] in 1980, four years after that. [1:29:32] and [1:29:33] I can say it. [1:29:35] racism became my obsession. [1:29:37] I did not confront Matt Cole. [1:29:40] in school. [1:29:41] because you know, [1:29:42] My peer group back then, we were raised [1:29:45] you have respect for your elders as figures of authority. Whether you accept them or not, you still respect them.

[1:29:51] And so, you know, I didn't confront him like that. [1:29:54] But now I've graduated. [1:29:56] from college, right? [1:29:58] And I graduated in 1980 at age 22. [1:30:01] In 1982, I'm age 24. [1:30:04] I had developed contacts with different people. I knew where some of these groups were, etc. I found out about [1:30:10] a demonstration, an unpublicized demonstration by the American Nazi Party that was going to take place in front of the White House. There is a park right across the street from the White House called Lafayette Park. [1:30:21] 24/7. [1:30:23] 365 days a year, there is somebody in that park protesting something. Nuclear weapons, the environment, abortion, you name it, they're there all the time. And they face the White House with their billboards and whatever. So I found out the American Nazi Party was going to have a silent, unpublicized demonstration, which means nobody knows about it, not even the police. [1:30:44] Right. [1:30:45] So I'm going to go down there and see them. Now, back then, you could drive up and down the 1600 block, [1:30:51] of Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the White House sits. And I only live, you know, about 30, 40 minutes from there. [1:30:57] you know, 15 minutes from D.C. on a non-rush hour day. [1:31:01] So I'll go down there early. It'll be there at 12 noon. [1:31:04] I parked my car at catty corner. [1:31:06] to the White House. I wait. [1:31:08] Here comes this van. [1:31:10] about 13 to 15 of these Nazis get out. [1:31:13] Who do I see? [1:31:15] Matt Cole and Martin Kerr. The same two guys from eight years ago who came to my school.

[1:31:21] You never forget the face. I mean, I can look at my hand right now and see his face right there. You know, you never forget the face of somebody who tells you they're going to ship you somewhere, whether you want to go or not. Or exterminate you. Exterminate you if you don't go voluntarily, right? [1:31:34] So, uh... [1:31:36] Anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up. They're not wearing anything that indicates they're Nazis. [1:31:42] They're wearing just dark black suits. [1:31:44] And they're standing there like this, facing the White House across the street, like this. It's lunchtime in D.C. People are walking by, not even knowing who they are. I know who they are. [1:31:53] I guess maybe the White House might have known who they were. So anyway, once you got them all lined up, [1:31:59] I walked right over to Matt Cole. And I said, Matt Cole? He like jumped. Like, who was this black person calling my name, you know? And he says, do I know you? [1:32:08] And I said, well, [1:32:10] "You spoke at my high school." What high school would that be? I said, "Wooten High School in Rockville, Maryland." [1:32:16] And he goes... [1:32:17] Yes, yes, yes. I remember you. That was a long time ago. [1:32:21] and i said yes for you yeah he remembered me yeah and he and he said yes that was a long time ago i i said yes that was eight years ago he goes yes yes i remember [1:32:31] What can I do for you? [1:32:32] I said, well, I'm still here. [1:32:34] He says, I can see that. How can I help you? I said, well, you can tell me just who the hell gives you the authority to make permanent travel arrangements for me. [1:32:43] And he says, what's your name? I said, Daryl Davis. And then he did something I've never forgotten. He shook my hand, and he held my hand real tight, and he shook his other hand, shook his finger in my face.

[1:32:55] and he said mister davis [1:32:56] You have to understand one thing: it is in the interest of your race, the black race, to be a strong race. And you cannot be a strong race unless you are a pure race. And you cannot be a pure race if you are miscegenating with other races. [1:33:09] It is in the interest of my race, the Aryan race, which is what he calls white race, right, to also be a pure race. And we cannot be a strong race. And we cannot be a strong race if we are miscegenating with mud races such as yours. We are becoming a mongrel race. [1:33:27] so anybody who's non-white is a mud race and he's fearing that his race [1:33:31] is dying out, becoming a mongrel race, [1:33:35] by mixing with other races. So he says, until the races understand that they cannot miscegenate, we cannot live side by side. We cannot live together. [1:33:43] And what do you hear there? Fear. Fear. [1:33:45] Yeah, it's fear. [1:33:47] So – [1:33:49] He, you know, I talked to him for about, you know, maybe 20, 30 minutes. I wasn't there to beat him up or cuss him out. I just want to understand where he's coming from, right? And so a few months later, they applied for a permit. [1:34:01] they had their national uh... uh... american nazi party recruitment [1:34:06] rally in Washington DC so people came from all over the country right [1:34:10] And now this time it was publicized. [1:34:13] So you had about 50 of them show up. [1:34:16] And there were tens of thousands of people that came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore, all over. So you have every police department was there.

[1:34:27] And there was rioting, all kinds of craziness going on. [1:34:29] right? You could not get to, I went there with my secretary, you could not get to the, to the Nazis. I saw Matt Cole and them, and now of course they're wearing their Gestapo uniforms with the SS insignias, flying swastika flags. [1:34:42] and all that kind of thing. [1:34:44] And you but you couldn't get to them because if the police have their shields and their batons and pushing people back. Right. So then people they came with bricks and all kinds of stuff and began throwing them. [1:34:57] over the heads of the police to land on the Nazis gathered in this opening in the park. [1:35:01] And so the cops began tear gassing everybody. And then it became a full blown riot. People were turning over police cars, breaking out the windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington, D.C. You can you can find it on YouTube. [1:35:14] And so anyway... [1:35:16] This is before Internet, right? 1980s. [1:35:19] Um... [1:35:21] My secretary and I go home, we watch the news. [1:35:24] And there's Matt Cole sitting. [1:35:26] in the studio of one of the network TV stations, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it was, [1:35:32] And he's talking to the anchor person, and they're showing footage of the riot in D.C. that day. You see? You see? It's the blacks and the Jews who are turning over the police cars and trying to attack us. You don't see the Nazis turning over the police cars? [1:35:46] It was then that I realized what he was doing, because... [1:35:50] He was a pretty smart guy, just smart in the wrong direction. I couldn't figure out why would he have his national recruitment rally.

[1:35:58] to recruit people into the Nazi Party in Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. is two-thirds black. There are no black people in D.C. who want to join the American Nazi Party. There are no Jews in Washington, D.C. or Jews anywhere who want to join the American Nazi Party. So why D.C.? [1:36:16] because he knew that would happen. [1:36:19] And he has the official footage from CBS, ABC, NBC. He takes that footage. [1:36:26] goes out there to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, or Washington State, the Pacific Northwest. [1:36:32] and says, "You see what's going on in our nation's capital? Our country is being run by Zog." [1:36:37] Zog is a very common term in white supremacy, Z-O-G. [1:36:42] It stands for Zionist Occupied Government. [1:36:45] Oh boy. Yeah. And so he shows this, you know, rioting, you know, of all these people who he alleges are blacks and Jews. [1:36:52] destroying and denying people their right of freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. So then it's a recruitment tool. [1:37:00] So I learned that, and I realized what he was doing, and I've seen the Klan do the same thing. They will go somewhere where they know... [1:37:06] there's going to be some kind of a riot. That's why they want to march in Skokie, Illinois, which was an all-Jewish neighborhood, because they knew it was going to [1:37:14] created a... [1:37:14] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan.

[1:37:44] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:38:07] This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees. Hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from Blinds.com. Whether you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered. [1:38:37] want but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer, Blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply. [1:39:07] disturbance and they use that. But so I learned a lot from Matt Cole. Bizarre that someone would be smart in the wrong way like that.

[1:39:16] Mm-hmm. [1:39:18] It's bizarre. [1:39:19] It's bizarre, but you find it in any color, every color. [1:39:22] You know, people... [1:39:24] You know, divide and conquer is how you gain power. [1:39:28] And the first thing, and going back to the fear factor of that, like we did the exact same thing. Every time there was violence, when we'd clash with Antifa or something like that, we had people out there filming. Like NSM had its own media arm. So they're out there filming that, and we would put out those clips. So immediately, especially if there was violence, if there was actual clashes and the police weren't keeping people separated, those always turned into recruits. That's how these groups would utilize that stuff. [1:39:58] be fighting with the Reds, you know, like, I'll be at the next one. And then you'd have applications coming in from new recruits that would see it on the news. So with these groups are always manipulating the media. Some of the rallies that I organized were at places like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those those elements and would guarantee the press or downtown LA at the at the City Hall, or marching on DC, places that would guarantee a lot [1:40:28] recruit people in those areas, it was to whip up [1:40:33] chaos because that would benefit these groups. How do these groups use the media or rather social media and the internet to radicalize people? Nowadays, it's a double-edged sword, the media, because these groups before, like I was discussing earlier, you had to kind of search them out or a recruiter had to find you or something like that. It wasn't easy to find. Now...

[1:40:59] a fourth grader can click on [1:41:01] and go find these groups. They're easy to find online. And so sometimes they're very overt, but a lot of times there's different censorship things that are in place. So they'll change the cover of the book. So the propagandists that we had in the group were making stuff look less innocuous, not using swastikas or things like that. So some groups are very prolific at that, and they'll use podcasts. They'll use videos. They have Nazi podcasts? Oh, yeah. [1:41:31] Don't get any ideas, man. They don't get as many listeners as Joe Rogan. [1:41:42] What? [1:41:43] What kind of... [1:41:45] How many people are listening to Nazi podcasts? [1:41:48] That really varies. Is it still a large movement in this country? Yeah. Yeah. [1:41:53] Yeah. And how does it grow now? Does it grow based on like the things Daryl was talking about, like riots and stuff like that where they'll use that? [1:42:02] Maybe Black Lives Matter riots from the 2000s or 2020s, rather. [1:42:07] Well, one of the things that's causing it to grow also, which I was going to lean up to when I... [1:42:12] talked with Matt Cole about what I learned in 1982. [1:42:15] was that [1:42:16] These people, meaning the movement, the white supremacy movement, are fearing. He told me this in 1982. They are fearing the year 2042. [1:42:26] All right. It's not a conspiracy. It's for real. All right.

[1:42:30] The U.S. Census is taken every decade. [1:42:34] Thank you. [1:42:34] I'm 67. When I was, it doesn't matter how old you are, how old he is or whatever, I [1:42:39] When we all were children, [1:42:41] The black population in this country was 12 percent. [1:42:46] Native Americans, 1%. [1:42:49] Latino Hispanic Americans almost 2%. Asian Americans [1:42:55] Pacific Islander Americans, almost 3%. [1:43:00] whites were like around 86 87 percent this back in I was born in 58 all right so every decade [1:43:07] this [1:43:07] is happening. [1:43:09] And this is what Matt Cole was telling me, that they were fearing. He used the word fear. [1:43:13] He said it has to be stopped. He said in the year 2042 if this trend continues, [1:43:20] this country will be 50-50. [1:43:22] meaning 50% white, 50% non-white. The last census taken... [1:43:28] in our country was 2020. [1:43:30] Guess what? [1:43:30] whites went from like 87 percent [1:43:33] from the time I was a kid and you were a kid, [1:43:35] Now, 59%. [1:43:38] That was in 2020. [1:43:39] is less than that right now in 2025. So in 2040, it's gonna be this. [1:43:44] is predicted by [1:43:45] between 2045 and 2050 is going to flip. [1:43:49] And for the first time in the history of the United States, [1:43:51] Whites will become the minority. And while there are plenty of white people who say, hey, that doesn't bother me, no big deal, it's evolution, what's the big deal? There is a slice of our population, the ones that I deal with.

[1:44:04] who think it is a big deal, [1:44:05] And they're trying to stop it. [1:44:07] And that's why when I first started, I've been doing this for 45 years. When I first started doing this, it was just the KKK, white power skinheads, and some neo-Nazi groups. That was basically it, right? Today you've got the KKK, the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, the Patriot Front, the Vanguard, the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the National Alliance, on, on, and on, a whole slew of groups. And they're all saying, come join us, come join us. We're going to take back our country. Right? [1:44:34] right so people out of fear [1:44:36] of their identity being erased as... [1:44:40] They're saying because they're trying to keep the races pure. What they tell me is, Darrell, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America or white genocide through miscegenation. So... [1:44:52] These people, out of fear of their identity being erased, because they truly believe that they are patriots, and it's their job to save this country. We built this country, we wrote the Constitution, and now people are coming into our country who don't look like us and squeezing us out of our own country. [1:45:08] That's the mentality, and as Jeff points out, they're surrounded by an echo chamber that keeps repeating that, so then it becomes the truth. [1:45:14] to them, right? So they run and join these groups. [1:45:18] to take back the country. [1:45:20] But when the group does not act fast enough to take back the country, [1:45:24] they get antsy and get frustrated and say, you know what? If the Nazis can't do it or the Klan can't do it, I'll do it myself. [1:45:29] and they walk into a black church in South Carolina, boom, boom, boom, boom, and murder nine black people doing Bible study, or the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, kill off 11 Jewish people, the Buffalo grocery store in New York, the Sikh Indian Temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, murders seven Sikh Indians doing religious service, the Walmart in El Paso, Texas, 23 Mexican people were murdered by white supremacists a few years ago. These people are called lone wolves.

[1:45:58] And every time one of them gets taken out by law enforcement or gets arrested and their property gets searched, [1:46:04] Law enforcement always finds a cache of automatic weapons that are being stockpiled [1:46:09] for Rahoa, or the Boogaloo. [1:46:12] Because they're looking to have this... [1:46:15] redo of the Civil War to preserve their lifestyle. [1:46:20] And so 2042 is going to be a pivotal year. [1:46:24] And we're only, what, 16, 17 years away from that right now. [1:46:28] Wow. [1:46:30] So that's why they walked down the street chanting, they will not replace us. That's what that's all about? Yep. [1:46:34] Yeah. This is white replacement theory, right? Which is bogus. Nobody's trying to replace anybody. Just you guys aren't fucking enough. [1:46:46] It's so simple. You're already the majority. You need to do your work. [1:46:55] It is just not my sister, right? Right. [1:47:04] going to come a point in time where there's enough education enough understanding and especially with the access to information we have with the internet this would all go away but it doesn't seem like that's helping because it seems like [1:47:17] The more access to information, the more people settle into these echo chambers. That and also a lot of the old guard... [1:47:26] realize this is happening and if we want to preserve

[1:47:30] our [1:47:32] our culture, our whatever... [1:47:34] we need to pass this on to young people. We need to get more young people involved. And they began recruiting young people to... [1:47:42] to disseminate this information and [1:47:44] and galvanize more of their peers into this ideology. And back to the recruitment of military and law enforcement, because they know this is going to happen and they're going to want those people on board. [1:48:03] to be on that side. And you know, I mean, [1:48:07] You can probably talk about military and law enforcement inside your organization. I can talk about it in the plan or whatever. Yeah, as far as like the military was concerned, we were actively trying to recruit military. So early on in the organization, it was like 10 percent maybe of the members. By the time I left, it was about 50 percent. And how did you do that? Well, we we on their applications, you know, we were asking what branch they were in, what rank they achieved, because we were looking at all that for potential leadership. [1:48:34] So anybody that had military experience, especially in the higher ranks, those people would be naturally looked at for leadership positions in the party because they had those skills. Right, but how did they try to recruit military people? So using the same tactics as everybody else, but... [1:48:51] as far as the organization specifically, [1:48:56] Having that military structure, like we discussed earlier, having that structure gave them so somebody that was coming out of the military that was retired or something like that, it would provide that structure that they were missing. So a lot of times for people that are involved in this stuff, it's fulfilling a psychological need. It's being part of a mission. It's having that something that's driving them, a driving force that's behind their ideology.

[1:49:26] I think it's a lot of things that a lot of times people miss that aspect of it. And I explain it not to excuse it because there is no excuse for it. These are choices that people make. But if you understand the psychology of it, like why someone's involved in it, that's helpful to help pull them out. And also when someone's coming out of these organizations to have a new mission, have something else. [1:49:56] But there has to be something because if they're missing that, that's when they really struggle. That's one thing I've seen a lot of. So what is the protocol? Like how do you handle – like say if someone is leaving and they contact you and say, I know you left, I want to leave too. What are the steps you take to make sure that they do find some sort of a new purpose? A lot of times just kind of asking them questions, you know, asking a lot of questions and seeing what they're interested in and finding those things, [1:50:26] and that because that's missing. So I've had a lot of people say like when they've left, they're like, I don't have that. I don't have that. So a lot of times we'll talk through that. Well, what interests you? What are you interested in? And a lot of times we try to keep them kind of steer clear of politics. But for some people it might be okay. But typically that's kind of probably one they should stay away from for a little bit. So politics because they have this desire to help. [1:50:52] Fix society. So they think they're going to get involved. I'm not a Nazi anymore, so I'll get involved in fixing it in a more legitimate way. Yep. And one of the problems, Joe, is this.

[1:51:03] When these people leave the movement... [1:51:06] there is a moniker [1:51:09] that's tagged on them [1:51:10] and a stigma that follows. [1:51:13] Okay, you know, when you see their name in the media, it's never... [1:51:17] uh, [1:51:18] You know, Jeff Scoop, blah, blah, blah. It's always former neo-Nazi Jeff Scoop. Doesn't say former rock musician. No. [1:51:26] That's some wacky ideas, but let's not talk about that. [1:51:31] So that stigma kind of follows, you know, and it's hard for them to break. [1:51:35] Right. You know, whereby most people, you know, when they screw up or whatever, you [1:51:39] you know is forgiven let's say you know you and i have friends i call you and say hey joe may not believe this last weekend [1:51:45] I got [1:51:47] thrown in jail for DWI. [1:51:51] you know you'd be like well man you know you need to quit drinking and driving you know why you call me I would come pick you up you have to drive home whatever. And you and I would still be friends. [1:52:00] But if I call you and say, "Hey man, I got arrested for murder or for rape," [1:52:05] why are you calling me? You need distancing. [1:52:09] even though these people might have been friends [1:52:11] with somebody who later became a white supremacist or whatever, the stigma of it, even now that they're out, you know, they still are a little leery and want to stay clear because you're judged by the company you keep. [1:52:24] So it's always, you know, ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, instead of just saying so-and-so is working here. Yeah, I mean, there's very few people that... [1:52:33] even want to believe that someone's capable of moving. Right, exactly. The tiger, stripes, and leopard.

[1:52:38] They would always think, like, this guy's got to be fucked up. He was a Nazi. [1:52:41] Yeah, and it's crazy because I had a reporter one time, and I won't say who or anything like that, but he had said, you know, I visit a murderer in prison, and I'm okay with that. [1:52:53] I'm not so sure about... [1:52:55] like your journey. Like, I mean, like he basically what he was saying in so many words was he was more comfortable with the murderer than somebody. And this is a, this is a, [1:53:04] a reporter, you know, somebody, a journalist. And they were more uncomfortable speaking with a former neo-Nazi. That's fascinating. Mm-hmm. [1:53:13] Yeah. [1:53:14] Were they Jewish? [1:53:15] No. [1:53:17] Definitely liberal. [1:53:19] Yes. Yes. For sure. I think the stigma of it is just so unforgivable. [1:53:26] which is part of the problem. [1:53:28] But then why, if you're not going to forgive that person or that ideology, right, then [1:53:34] then why do you want to fight it? Why do you want to combat it? Why not just accept it? Because it's not going to change, or at least you're not going to change your attitude towards it. Right. You have to help. [1:53:43] If you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness. [1:53:49] Exactly. I mean, you know, [1:53:51] Prison is a penal... [1:53:54] institution, not a reform institution, which is why this country has the highest recidivism rate of any country in the world. [1:54:01] Right. People go in there and they don't get reformed and they learn from better people than they were at their crime. And they go back out and they do it again. And people don't accept them.

[1:54:11] Because they have that stigma that follows them. Well, I can't hire an ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Right. [1:54:17] Where do they go? Right. That's what we said. Interesting side note on that. You know, we talk about like some of the hate that I had and I was a raging anti-Semite, more than a racist by at all by all points. And the irony of today working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. [1:54:34] I mean, there's just so much irony there. And, like, the Jewish community was the community that I dehumanized and villainized the most. And, Joe, they have been the most accepting and welcoming as far as since the change has happened. And that just... [1:54:49] blew my mind. Because the first time I went to speak at a synagogue, I thought, man, these people are going to want to stone me to death. You know, like I... [1:54:57] What should I say? How am I going to, you know, how, what is this going to be like? I'd never been in a synagogue before. And this took place in Skokie, Illinois. And I tell you, after, after speaking there, I got more hugs and more love and compassion than I'd probably... [1:55:12] any other place I could ever remember being. That's really interesting. So did they – [1:55:17] Have you tried to understand why you, at one point in time, hated Jews? Did they ask you questions? What did you think... [1:55:27] Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, they have something called teshuva, which means like forgiveness or repentance. And tikkun olam means to heal the world. So these are things that were counterintuitive and contrary to everything that I thought I knew about the Jews. Now Jeff is speaking Hebrew, you understand. Right. Yeah. So, but it was really bizarre. So it's like when I speak with kids at schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys remember in elementary school and you had opposite day and your shirt's back?

[1:55:57] backwards and all that kind of stuff. I said, that was my life. Like everything that I thought that I knew about the Jews and the movement, I was an expert on the Jews, the Jewish question, you know, and here- Did you have any experience with Jewish people? No. None. No. So this was all just based on Nazi ideology? [1:56:15] Huh. [1:56:17] So you had no negative or positive interactions with Jewish people? No. Towards the end of my time when I was involved, I had a few interactions with Jewish people that I knew of. But before that, no, absolutely not. Just wouldn't discuss anything with them, wouldn't talk to them, and just felt like they were inherently evil. Swallowed the whole anti-Semitic pill, I guess you could say. I mean – [1:56:44] believed all of it and they were the people that I dehumanized the most and yet I [1:56:49] Today, they are the people that have been the most open. [1:56:52] And for the longest time, [1:56:56] Jews have been blamed for everything, things they had nothing to do with. [1:57:00] Um, [1:57:01] They say, you know, that the Jews run the media, they own the media, they run the banking systems and all that kind of stuff. [1:57:09] And so... [1:57:10] People began believing in that. [1:57:13] and that and they become you know persona non grata even though they may not may not even know any jewish people and that's why i say [1:57:21] You know, when I feel I can trust [1:57:23] you know, some individual who trusts me or whatever around my friends.

[1:57:27] I will invite them over or whatever and I bring in some Jewish friends of mine and other black friends or white friends so that they can see [1:57:35] something outside the echo chamber. Another former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend of mine, [1:57:40] was telling me that when he was in... Funny sentence. That's a moron, right? Former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend of mine. A Freudian slip. [1:57:50] No, it's accurate. Exactly. Yeah. So anyway, he was telling me when he was in the movement, [1:57:57] uh... he's he's from wisconsin and you know there there for both in the green bay packers and they're just you know [1:58:04] crazy about their football team. And so he would tell me, you know, that they're not allowed to watch [1:58:09] football games. [1:58:10] Because it's interracial, you know, black and white members on the teams playing together. So that's forbidden. And so he'd have to sneak... [1:58:18] around and watch, turn the volume down and watch the game because he loved the Packers, right? And when the Packers would score a goal, he'd do like this. [1:58:28] Right. And so then he tells me that, you know, when he got out and other people were getting out, it turns out they were doing the same thing, you know, watching the game. Oh, that's so crazy. But he has a great story telling about the guys from Cameroon. [1:58:45] Oh, yeah, yeah. So I had met some embassy people from the country of Cameroon in Africa, and they had come out to one of my talks. And afterwards, you know, they said, you know, it was really fascinating. And America is really far behind on race relations. You know, when we first got here, we didn't realize we were black. And I was like, what are you guys talking about? I said, we got to talk. I got to understand this. What do you mean you didn't realize you were black?

[1:59:15] we're black, but you see in the United States, you know, or where we're from in Cameroon, we're Cameroonian. [1:59:21] You know, that's who we are. Like, you know, we know we're black, but he goes, you know, in the United States, it's different. [1:59:27] You're black American, white American, you know. Yeah. He says we're treated differently in the United States, even by other black people. You know, we were treated differently. So he says now we know we're black. Wow. I took a minute to wrap my mind around that one. [1:59:42] Well, it makes sense. They think of themselves as Cameroonian. As they should. Yeah, as they should. Yep. [1:59:48] Wow. [1:59:50] Yeah, that's what's crazy when you experience racism from other black people. You're like, whoa. Whoa. [1:59:54] Right. Well, now, hold on now. Or discrimination, I should say. Well, when you experience it from anybody. Right. But understand something. Okay, so, you know, we have a unique thing here. [2:00:06] uh... called slavery [2:00:08] And Jewish people have a unique thing called the Holocaust. [2:00:12] so [2:00:13] If you're a white guy... [2:00:15] And you're walking down the street. [2:00:18] sidewalk. [2:00:19] And some other white guy is coming up the sidewalk. You don't know him. Just a stranger, you know. [2:00:24] You guys are going to pass. [2:00:26] And not say a thing to either one. You know, just go on by, right? [2:00:31] If it's a black guy, two black guys passing, they don't agree. They're going, yo, man, what's up? [2:00:36] They're going to acknowledge one another because they have a shared experience. [2:00:41] they both are descendants of slaves, they both have experienced racism at some point in their life or whatever. If two Jews pass...

[2:00:48] who don't know each other, they're going to go, Shalom. [2:00:50] because of that commonality, that experience. So unless you've had that experience, you don't... [2:00:57] you don't react to it. So when [2:01:01] I lived in Africa, on the continent of Africa, for 10 years. I lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and Senegal, and visited many other countries in between because of my dad's job, right? So I can tell you, you know... [2:01:12] All black people don't look alike. All black people don't know each other. All right? [2:01:17] And that's a funny thing to say, too. Yeah. But you know what? A lot of white people think that they do a lot. Yeah. Especially older, older ones. Yeah. OK. Now, at one time. [2:01:30] In a city? [2:01:31] all black people probably did know each other. Okay? Because... [2:01:36] they had to go to the same school, and there was only one black school in the town, right? They couldn't go to different white schools. Okay, so yeah, you know, they could only shop in a certain store. They couldn't shop in every store or restaurant. So yeah, they would run into each other more often. But today, you know, no, but the stigma is still there. Okay, the sentiment, especially with older people. So anyway, [2:01:55] If I'm walking down the street and I've had this happen and some black guy from Africa is coming up the street, [2:02:03] I go, hey, man, what's up? [2:02:05] You know, I don't know the guy. He looks at me like, kind of strange, like... [2:02:08] I don't know you. Why are you talking to me? Because he doesn't have that experience. Right. [2:02:12] Right. So we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not monolithic. Right. [2:02:17] Well, this is the only way these movements like the neo-Nazis work is if you don't know a lot of people from all over the world and realize we're all just people. Yep. This is –

[2:02:31] And it is very fear-based, right? Yeah. Because, I mean, think about it. You're clinging to the lowest common denominator. You all have a certain amount of melanin in your skin, and you're all from a certain part of the world. Right. [2:02:44] That's it. And it's really not a very good commonality. It's terrible. It's terrible, yeah. Especially when you think about the differences in personalities and tastes and just how people behave. It's not a good indicator at all. It's the dumbest. It really is. But there's no bearing on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing on any of the things that we find fascinating and attractive about people. It's just the color of your skin, which is the dumbest fucking thing on earth. Absolutely. [2:03:11] And, you know... [2:03:13] And we all may engage in it somewhat. [2:03:16] like for example [2:03:19] If... [2:03:21] I like Chinese food. [2:03:23] And if I go to a Chinese restaurant... [2:03:27] I don't want to see a bunch of white college kids or black college kids, for that matter, in the kitchen cooking it for me. Right. Right. [2:03:33] You know, I want the authentic real deal. [2:03:35] Right. You know, so am I being... [2:03:37] Prejudice? No. [2:03:39] That's not prejudice. You want to experience the culture. Yeah, like if I go to an Italian restaurant, I'm assuming there's going to be a bunch of old-school Italian people back there cooking. [2:03:49] I want heavy accents. I want the smell of garlic in the air. You know what I'm saying? Do you know where Italians came from? [2:03:59] Originally? Yeah. [2:04:01] I mean, I'm assuming Italy?

[2:04:03] Well, that's where they live. I mean, what are you trying to say? Well, I'll tell you. Okay. Okay, so Italians came from Africa. Okay. [2:04:11] They came from the Moors. Oh yes. Well, Sicily in particular. That's actually where my family's from. Okay, well there you go. Okay, and they're darker in Sicily than in Rome and Venice and wherever else. Right, right. The further you move from the equator, the further you move from the equator. Right. [2:04:24] the darker the skin. Right. Okay. Yeah. The moors came into there. [2:04:29] We all evolved from Africa at some point in time, way back when. Right. But, you know, a lot of people don't realize that. [2:04:36] And they really need to check their DNA [2:04:38] and check their history... [2:04:40] rather than just... [2:04:41] take it from where they started, where they were born. You know, that's why I think it's so important. [2:04:46] To not ban books and rewrite history at all. Of course. Yeah, of course. You know, there is some indication that human beings might have come out of Asia as well. In fact, one of the oldest known human skeletons that they found, which predates... Lucy? No, it's another one. Well, Lucy is out of Ethiopia. Right, but Lucy wasn't a homo sapien. [2:05:16] they thought Homo sapiens existed. This is very recent. And so it was likely that this was taking place in multiple areas of the world, just like there's different animals in multiple places in the world. There's different primates in multiple places in the world. And there's a bunch of different kinds of animals. [2:05:32] of human being, of course, right? There's Denisovans, which they've just recently discovered, and then there was the Hobbit people on the island of Flores. Like, there's a lot of, when it comes to the evolutionary history of human beings, it's very, very odd. But when you talk about, like, the cultural history of human beings, that's when things get really crazy because it was just a lot of people, like, traveling all over the place and just settling into the climate.

[2:06:03] It's that simple. And they had to develop essentially like a giant solar panel to suck up vitamin D because they weren't getting any vitamin D from the sun. It's really that simple. And that's when it gets real weird. Which has nothing to do with their intelligence or lack thereof. Nothing. Zero. Zero. [2:06:21] You know, it's all environmental. And over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, people change their appearance. [2:06:28] And, you know, when you tell people that, they're like, wait, what? We all came from the same source. That's why we could all have babies, you know, like other animals that are very different. Like there's certain fish that can have babies with other fish, but those those fish become infertile. [2:06:47] And then the same with donkeys. Donkeys, they can't have babies. Or mules, rather, can't have babies because it's a cross between a donkey and a horse. [2:07:00] And you can do it, but then it can't make babies. Or a liger can't make babies. Right. Right? But people can make babies with people, obviously, because we're the same fucking thing. Right. Any culture of people. Yes. Yes. Any culture of people can have babies with other cultures of people, because we all come from the same source. Kind of wipes out the whole racism argument, doesn't it? It's the stupidest thing ever, because it's adaptive to environment. Your DNA, my DNA, his DNA, is 99.9% the same. Yep. [2:07:30] And that should be taught in elementary school. Yes. Don't wait to teach it in college when people's minds are already solidified. Yes, yes, yes. I think that thing, too, that exposure that you had to that Nazi coming to visit you, even though it's negative exposure, it's probably good to see. You know, like when I was a kid, I was in high school when I was 14. Barney Frank. Oh, yeah, I remember him. Yeah, he wasn't openly gay then, but he was like one of the first openly gay members of Congress. He lived near me. He lived near me as well.

[2:08:00] at the time and he was from Massachusetts or was representative of Massachusetts. So when he lived in D.C. as a congressman. Okay. So this was before that, I guess, then. [2:08:10] So he was debating a member of what at the time was the – I believe it was the moral majority. And it was this really goofy guy who came out and he had like an American flag on his lapel. And I remember I was 14. And when you're 14 and you see someone who's got this very – like he was very anti-gay marriage, very anti a lot of things. But he was a clumsy – [2:08:36] It wasn't very eloquent, not a very compelling speaker. And then Barney Frank went up, you know, so they both spoke, spoke, this guy spoke and then Barney Frank and Barney Frank was so much smoother, so much more articulate. It was like, and for every all the kids that I was in school with who left, they're like, that guy made more sense. [2:08:56] Like this is a good thing to say. It's good that they see someone with a very narrow-minded, bigoted perspective and then someone who is more intelligent, has a much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate information and to dissect the bad arguments of the other person. So we all walked out of there with like, oh, okay. And then I remember talking about it with my friends like, yeah, that guy is a fucking moron, that first guy.

[2:09:26] Thank you. [2:09:27] Nowadays, instead of that, you would only get one. You would only get the one person talking. But the one person talking without the other person talking is not as good. And this idea of protecting kids from bad ideas because they don't want these kids to be indoctrinated by bad ideas, it doesn't work with human beings. The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas. And the fear of having these kind of debates in schools is really dangerous. [2:09:57] It's dangerous for discourse. It's dangerous for the development of the ability to have arguments and ideas and to be able to debate. You have to see it done. You have to see bad thinking done. [2:10:09] Good thinking. I get it. I get it. This guy's [2:10:13] He's more clever. He's thinking better. He's got more information. [2:10:18] This makes sense. And if you don't allow people to make those distinctions on their own, if you just baby them and treat them like you can't expose them to these negative ideas, you miss out on the possibility of accepting nuance and an understanding of how a less sophisticated, less educated person can fall into these traps of these stupid ideologies. You just nailed it right on the head, man. [2:10:46] allowing them to see the difference. Yes. Okay? Because... [2:10:51] you know, people [2:10:52] How did you change those people, Darrell? No, I didn't change them. They changed themselves. Because we all know one's perception is one's reality. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. You cannot change their reality. And if you try, you're going to get resistance. Because they only know what they know.

[2:11:15] If you keep trying, it's going to escalate. [2:11:18] You're going to get loud and keep on trying. [2:11:21] You call it going to be rolling around on the ground hitting each other or whatever, right? Because all fights start with yelling and screaming. Right. Right. So... [2:11:28] rather is [2:11:29] rather than try to attack somebody's reality. [2:11:33] and try to set their reality straight, don't do that. You'll fail. [2:11:37] what you do is you offer them a better perception or perceptions. Yes. And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, like showing them, this guy speaks very eloquently, that guy speaks like a moron. Right. Just let them see it. Yeah. That perception then resonates with them, and they change their own reality. Yeah. So don't focus on how you're going to change somebody's reality. Focus on what kind of perceptions can I offer that person that might resonate. Right, right. [2:12:07] who you are because when people see someone speak and it resonates with them and see someone speak and they that you can sense how they think of things you can see the thought process and you go well who do i admire more i admire this guy he's like he's [2:12:23] He's thinking like this is an enlightened person. This is a person who's thinking in a way that I want to be able to think like that, especially as a young kid. You know, you don't want to be a moron. When you see someone you think is a moron, you're like – [2:12:35] Okay. Okay. [2:12:35] I'm glad I saw that guy because that guy looks like a fucking idiot. Now this guy, oh, that guy makes more sense. You know, when Jeff and I were in that Christmas grill,

[2:12:46] and he felt he was getting along too well. [2:12:50] with the enemy being me. And he started beating his fists on the table, and that's shown in the documentary. [2:12:56] he was trying to get a rise out of me because I wasn't behaving the way he was expecting me to behave. Right. And, and so when he went into Nazi mode, [2:13:05] I remain the same way. [2:13:07] And that freaked them out. Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. How did it feel like to you? It? [2:13:13] Well, normally when you escalate, and we call this relational dialogue, and we do talks about this as well. Oh, so it's a strategy? It's a strategy, yeah. Wow. So when I tried to escalate, normally... [2:13:25] almost [2:13:26] Ninety nine point nine percent of the time when you escalate, the other person escalates. Daryl didn't escalate. So I'm doing that and he just goes and then just continues the conversation like like I never even raised my voice. So I'm like, you start yelling at somebody, they start yelling back. Right, right, right, right. [2:13:44] So I'm blown away by this. I'm like, why is this guy not reacting? What's going on here? And so now I'm really dialed in because I'm trying to figure him out. And that's when it was soon after that, that you explained the story about how the Cub Scouts and how racism affected him growing up. And [2:14:01] Then all of a sudden, I'm thinking about, what if somebody would have done that to one of my kids? Right. And I saw Daryl's humanity in that moment. So that's how he cracked that window open. Jeff just made a very... [2:14:15] point that I see a lot of times, okay? Because when things escalate,

[2:14:19] Okay, when you come in, [2:14:21] to meet your adversary, [2:14:22] you know this person has a different viewpoint than you do. [2:14:26] And you're not going to let them try to change your viewpoint. You're going to be steeled. [2:14:30] into what you believe, right? So your ears are going to be blocking out anything that does not agree with your philosophy. Right. Right? So... [2:14:39] in order to, if you start escalating stuff, that, that, [2:14:44] that block out becomes even greater. [2:14:48] You want that person's wall to come down. [2:14:52] And by not reacting... [2:14:54] that person becomes curious. [2:14:57] He's like, where's this guy coming? What's up with him? He's not reacting the way most [2:15:01] black people would react when I say whatever. So as the wall comes down, the curiosity on his end [2:15:08] rises. [2:15:09] And so now... [2:15:11] His ears are unblocked, and he's ready to hear what I have to say. [2:15:15] But if I'm escalating and telling him my story while I'm escalating about getting thrown rocks off, [2:15:21] He would probably say, oh, well, it wasn't me that did it, you know, so what's the deal? Well, that's almost all conversations you have with people when you disagree. If you elevate your language and start yelling and they start yelling – [2:15:34] Right. Nobody figures out anything. Right. Nobody's ever won an argument that way. It's just a lot of fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of fucking going on. It's like you... [2:15:45] You don't get taught that in school. That's unfortunate as well.

[2:15:50] You don't get taught how to control your emotions. [2:15:56] When people say to someone, hey, shut the fuck up, like you think that person is going to listen? Like most of the time, no. Like if you're arguing about something and you do it, like it's almost always a bad idea. [2:16:09] You know, it just becomes a thing that people say, you know, like someone says, fuck you to somebody. And then it's not like the person goes, fuck me. Oh, geez, fuck me. No, they go, fuck you back. Fuck you. And then nothing gets done. [2:16:21] This is when you're [2:16:24] Having especially it's something so heavily charged like a racial discussion like. [2:16:31] It's... [2:16:32] As a human being, it's so important to think of how the other person works. [2:16:37] is viewing your words, like how... [2:16:40] what are they accepting? What do they see in you? And if you turn yourself into an enemy and turn them into an enemy, [2:16:48] nothing gets done. So you know the cliche, misery loves company. Yeah. Negativity does promote negativity, right? Yes. Positivity promotes positivity. So quick example, [2:16:58] You know, you're driving down the highway, you know, speed limits 55 miles an hour. You're doing 75 miles an hour, right? And you're getting ready to go over this hill. [2:17:07] and the oncoming traffic. [2:17:10] you know, some guy comes over the hill before you crest it. [2:17:12] and the person is flashing the lights. [2:17:14] You don't know who's in that car, but they're flashing the lights. So that means usually there's a cop on the other side working radar. Right. Or it could be construction or an accident, something you need to slow down. Right. Right. So –

[2:17:27] You hit your brakes before you go over the hill. [2:17:30] As soon as you crest the hill, oh, there's a cop with a radar gun. Man. [2:17:35] you're going to have a $150 ticket. [2:17:37] Right? Ruin your day. [2:17:39] and that stranger, total stranger you don't know what color he was, what religion he is who he voted for, who his daddy was whatever [2:17:47] That person saved you from giving that ticket, right? So as you... [2:17:51] slowly cruise by the copy doesn't pull you over or whatever [2:17:56] you know you must start flashing your lights [2:17:58] at the oncoming traffic to save them. But let's say [2:18:02] You're coming up the hill and people are coming over the hill and nobody's flashing lights. You go over that hill right there. [2:18:09] There he is. [2:18:11] Pulling you over, you know, license registration, [2:18:15] So remain in your car, be with you in a moment. Comes back, gives you that $150 ticket. [2:18:19] until you have a nice day, you're ruined. You lost $150. [2:18:26] Your insurance goes up because you've got points on your license now. You know, all kinds of crap. Your day is ruined. So now as you continue down the street, you don't flash your lights either. [2:18:36] That's their problem. So, you know, misery loves company. Negativity promotes negativity. A random act of kindness from a stranger. [2:18:44] All right? [2:18:45] Well, you know, the guy could have been having a bad day, and you flashed your lights and you saved him $150. [2:18:51] now he's having a better day he's my flashes lights [2:18:56] That's a good analogy.

[2:18:58] Yeah. And more humans need to not worry about somebody's skin color, who's in the car, who they voted for. [2:19:04] Just do acts of kindness. Stop dehumanizing people. [2:19:09] You know, the guy in the car is just as human as you are. [2:19:11] And you don't even know who he voted for, but he flashes lights to you and saved you some money. [2:19:15] Yeah. [2:19:16] Um... [2:19:18] Are you hopeful? [2:19:20] With all the work that you've done and all the people that you've removed from the Nazi party and the Ku Klux Klan and seeing how your message resonates with people. And I know every time I have you on, I get all these messages from people who go, wow, that guy's amazing. Like what an incredible journey. And it's like – [2:19:37] I know it resonates with a lot of people, but there's still so much fucking hatred in the world. Do you feel hopeful? Do you think things are moving in a generally good direction? I do, Joe. [2:19:48] I do. [2:19:49] And I'll tell you what. [2:19:52] I think right now we are in the best time [2:19:56] I mean, it may seem like things are very divisive right now, and they are, okay, politically, racially, whatever else, a lot of wars going on, religious wars. [2:20:06] racism, anti-Semitism, a rise in that. [2:20:09] And all kinds of stuff. [2:20:10] But yes, we are in the best time right now because... [2:20:14] people [2:20:15] They don't want to be in this time. [2:20:18] I don't know if I can have kids and raise them in this environment, that kind of thing. [2:20:23] We are in the best time. [2:20:25] Because... [2:20:26] people of the mindset will racism is over you know we had a black president there's no more racism is this is

[2:20:31] No. [2:20:32] there's still plenty of racism, all right? [2:20:35] Before you could turn a blind eye to it, if I don't see it, I don't hear it. [2:20:39] then it doesn't exist. But now, every time you turn your head, it's there, it's there, it's there. So you can't escape it. Now is the best time to address it. [2:20:48] right when it's in your face um [2:20:51] you go on vacation, you know, you're going to drive your car, you're, [2:20:54] to three states away. [2:20:57] and you get [redacted address] and your car is making some weird noise. Well, you don't want to get out of state and [2:21:03] Have your car break down. So you turn around and go back to your mechanic. Say, hey, man, you know, hop in, ride around the block with me. Figure out this noise. He gets in, rides around with you. [2:21:11] then no, it stopped. [2:21:12] He tells you, well, I don't hear it. I can't fix what I don't hear. [2:21:16] right but if he hears it oh yeah you know that's that's one of your spark blows loose or something whatever [2:21:22] Today, [2:21:23] We cannot turn a blind eye. It's everywhere. So now is the best time to fix it, address it. [2:21:28] Mmm, especially because of social media. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I tell people, you know, people say, well, you know, Jeff or Daryl or whoever. [2:21:36] you know, you guys are on the front line. [2:21:38] You know, I, I mean, I, I want to help, but [2:21:43] I don't know that I could sit down and talk to somebody who hates me. You know, I'd probably go off on them, or I'd be afraid, or, you know, whatever. They don't want to be on the front line. Right. That's fine. [2:21:53] Don't be on the front line. You can be on the back line. You can be on the sideline. You can be online. All right. [2:22:00] Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it. And no one line is any more important

[2:22:07] than any other line. And what I mean by that is this: [2:22:10] You can probably tell me your favorite movie. [2:22:12] You can probably tell me how many Oscars it won. You can tell me who the lead actress and lead actor were. All right? But those are people on the front line, the lead actress and actor. You know who they are. Right? But do you know... [2:22:24] Who was the guy or guys operating the camera? [2:22:27] probably not you don't know their names even though they're listed at the end of the movie because the credits run off for ten minutes right [2:22:34] Those are the people working on the back line. The person hanging the lights, you know his name? No. How about the makeup artist? No. The person who got the wardrobe together, those are people working on the sideline. Who put the trailer on the TV, the commercial, to promote the movie? Or on the Internet, those are people working online to promote that movie. Every one of those lines was important to that movie getting that many Oscars and becoming your favorite movie. So no one line is any more important than any other line. [2:23:03] And so I tell people, look, [2:23:05] You don't have to be on the front line. [2:23:07] Pick where you feel comfortable and let's all work together for the common goal. [2:23:11] So if someone's listening to this and say, okay, what Daryl's saying really resonates with me, how do I get started? How do I contribute? [2:23:19] What would you suggest? Email JeffScoop at BeyondBarriers. Email DarylDavis at DarylDavis.com or I co-founded an organization, I'm [2:23:28] called the Pro-Human Foundation. Alright? And [2:23:32] You know, you mentioned anti-racist, you talk about people always anti-this, anti-that, right? You know, I hear so much of that. I say, you know what?

[2:23:40] people keep talking about what they're against. [2:23:42] why don't we talk about what we're for that's more positive right I am NOT [2:23:47] anti-racist. [2:23:48] Alright, now what does that mean? People say, "You're not anti-racist?" What does that mean? [2:23:53] If you use it in terms of a noun, the racist being a noun, I'm not anti-racist. [2:23:59] the person [2:24:01] I'm anti the person's ideology. I'm not anti-racist. I'm anti-racismism. [2:24:08] I'm anti the "ism." I am pro-human. [2:24:11] It's what I am. So I want to talk about what I'm for. It's all like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. [2:24:16] So, [2:24:17] Contact the ProHumanFoundation.org. Contact Beyond Barriers and Parents for Peace, which I'm a part of as well. And we'll talk about how you can get involved in being pro and dispel... [2:24:31] Don't be against the person. Be against the message. [2:24:34] if you want to disagree with something. [2:24:36] I think that's a beautiful way to end this. [2:24:38] Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you for everything you do. I mean, you're a really extraordinary person. And the line you're on is the online. So thank you, my friend. My pleasure. My pleasure. And, Jeff, thank you for, you know, first of all, just spreading this message and having the courage to accept these bad decisions that you've made and how you got trapped and just to let people know how a person like yourself who does seem like such a nice and intelligent guy could get sucked into such an awful ideology. [2:25:08] And I think that's going to help a lot of people. I really do. Thanks so much for having us. It's been an incredible honor to be here. My pleasure. All right. So your book, American Nazis, available now. And Daryl, your book, Klan Whisperer.

[2:25:20] Also available. I used one of your quotes there. Thank you very much. I sure did. Oh, beautiful. Did you do the audio for this? Did you do an audio version of it? Like Jeff, it's a work in progress. All right. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Bye, everybody. [2:25:48] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [2:26:00] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. [2:26:30] meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

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