Housekeeper testifies at Utah mom murder trial. Sister seeks answers in shootout. Plus, photo lineups.

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track. [00:37] because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high-quality motors, sensors, belts and hard-to-find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. [00:48] so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. [00:51] Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by. [00:55] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:01] Let's go ahead and jump in. You're listening to the Dateline Story Meeting. What was she charged with? Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. She was like filing reports and reports and reports. The whole backdrop for the fire department is kind of interesting. She's starting to believe in her father's guilt. [01:20] Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Lester Holt. It's March 5th and here's what's on our docket. In South Carolina, two and a half years after a man was shot dead on a country road, a judge listens to witness testimony, body cam video, and 911 calls to figure out what happened. Hey, I've got a guy pointing a gun at me driving. In Dateline Roundup, closing arguments are set to begin at the murder trial of Michigan farmer Dale Warner.

[01:50] the trial of the former college football player accused of gunning down his teammate 20 years ago, comes to a surprising end. The Pata family, they've been very emotional throughout the proceedings. They seemed like they were in disbelief. Plus, it's a tool we see investigators use a lot to zero in on a suspect. Photo lineups. A retired police chief tells us how it's done. Even subtle cues, you know, breathing, posture, tone of voice, can influence the witness's choice. [02:20] all that, we're heading back to Utah, where Corey Richens, the mom of three accused of fatally poisoning her husband, came face to face with the prosecution's star witness, her former housekeeper. It's week two at the murder trial of Corey Richens, the woman who wrote a children's book about grief after her husband Eric's mysterious death, only to be charged with his murder. [02:50] that she could cash in on his life insurance and start life over with her lover. She says that's not true and has pleaded not guilty. So far in the trial, we've heard from Eric's family members about the couple's relationship and the devastating impact of his death. Eric was one of the most likable people. I'm sorry, guys. This is the worst in my life. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm [03:14] Now prosecutors are telling the jury how they think Corey went about poisoning him, calling to the stand Corey's 54-year-old former housekeeper, Carmen Lauber, the person they say purchased the fentanyl that killed Eric. Here to bring us the latest is Dateline producer Karen Israel. Thanks for coming back on the podcast, Karen. Thanks for having me. So let's get straight to this important testimony. Remind us why Carmen Lauber is such a key prosecution witness.

[03:44] Sure. So Eric's cause of death, according to the medical examiner, was a fentanyl overdose. The defense doesn't dispute that Eric died from a fentanyl overdose. They argue that Eric could have gotten it himself or accidentally ingested it. So the prosecutors need to be able to make the connection between Corey and the fentanyl. Carmen does that for them. And it was a big moment when Carmen took the stand. What was your impression of her? [04:14] because she's basically testifying about procuring an illegal drug that may have resulted in his death. She stayed pretty calm and seemed confident, but she was also emotional at several points and clearly seemed disturbed by the possibility that she may have played a role in Eric's death by purchasing the fentanyl. [04:35] The investigators told you that Eric had died? I already knew Eric had passed away. But when they had mentioned that it was from an overdose, [04:45] - [04:46] That hit hard. [04:51] only for the fact that [04:54] If that's what happened, I needed to [04:56] step up and take accountability of my part in this that happened. [05:02] The prosecutor revealed right out of the gate that Carmen was testifying subject to an immunity agreement. Why do you think he did that? [05:10] This was a way to deal head on with the defense saying that Carmen's testimony might be less credible because she was working with prosecutors. The prosecutor made it clear Carmen had to testify truthfully to meet the terms of that agreement. So what did you learn about who Carmen was when this all happened? So Carmen told the jury about her long history of substance abuse on top of a criminal drug history. She testified that she's sober now and has been for some time.

[05:40] runs a housekeeping business, and Carmen used to work for her. She cleaned Corey's house about every other week for years, and she said she'd discussed her drug use with Corey. Then she said in early 2022, the nature of their conversations changed. She reached out and asked if I could do her favor, and I said, yeah, probably, what is it? And then she had called me and asked me if I could reach out to somebody for... [06:09] to pay meds for [06:11] an investor that she knew, and I told her I could see what I could do. [06:17] Carmen said she bought some opiates from a friend, but then Corey asked her for something stronger. What then did you do? I had texted Corey back and told her that I had a friend that could get them, but they were fentanyl pills. How did Corey Richards respond? She said, okay, go ahead and get them. [06:39] She said she bought pills from a friend of a friend named Robert Crozier, who was a drug dealer. And Carmen testified that she got those pills to Corey a number of different ways. One time she handed her a bag of pills in person. Another time she hid them at a property Corey was flipping. [06:56] Did she tell you what she wanted you to do with those pets? She responded back with, take them over to the Midway house, put them in a shed. I didn't feel comfortable leaving them in the shed out in the open. So I went to the fire pit and kind of dug a little hole and put the gravel back on top of it and then kind of turned a brick to the side to kind of cover it up.

[07:17] And what do we know about the dates of these drug purchases? For context, Eric Richens was found dead almost four years ago exactly on March 4, 2022. Yeah. [07:27] Carmen couldn't give exact dates for any of the purchases, but the prosecutor showed the jury a Facebook message Carmen sent to the person she said connected her to Robert Crozier, the drug dealer. That was in February of 2022. And she testified about buying drugs for Corey a few days after Eric's death. So the drug buys are roughly the month around his death. All right, then it was time for the defense. How did they attack Carmen's credibility as a witness? [07:57] They kind of had a two-pronged approach. They went after her memory and her relationship with prosecutors. They said she'd regularly been using drugs at that time when she made these alleged purchases, so her memory couldn't be trusted. In fact, they pointed out that she told investigators herself when she was first talking to them that she couldn't remember stuff. They're trying to help you pin down a date, but you just, you said, I really, you told them multiple times, I really don't know. There was snow on the ground. [08:27] on the dates now. The defense read snippets of Carmen's various interview transcripts to the jury and pointed out that there were some inconsistencies between her testimony and what she initially told investigators. That's right. Perhaps the biggest difference being that Carmen initially denied buying fentanyl for Corey. The defense suggested that the detectives were the ones to plant this idea that Carmen had bought fentanyl for Corey. The only person up to this

[08:57] your head are these detectives correct? Ms. Lauber you're on the stand at that point they are the ones that told you it was fentanyl. They're the ones that told me that Eric passed away from fentanyl. They're the ones that put the word fentanyl in your head. They're the ones that told me that that's why Eric passed away from. Okay. Okay. [09:20] The defense also challenged Carmen on her immunity agreement. And you are willing to do whatever it takes to save yourself from getting kicked out of drug court and going to prison, correct? [09:31] I'm going to go forward with the truth, yes. [09:33] One of the next witnesses the prosecution called was Robert Crozier, the man she says she purchased the fentanyl from for Corey. Give us the rundown of his testimony. [09:44] Something important to know about Crozier is that when he first spoke to investigators years ago, he corroborated Carmen's story that he sold her fentanyl and signed an affidavit. [09:56] But he has since recanted and said he didn't start selling fentanyl until late 2022, months after the alleged drug purchases. I'm curious how the prosecution handled that. [10:08] They told the jury about his signed affidavit, and they said even if he didn't know he was selling fentanyl, other drugs can be laced with fentanyl without the user or dealer's knowledge. [10:20] How were the pills that you sold the common law of a package? [10:27] They were in a bag. And you got that bag from your plug, right? Correct. You did not get that bag from a pharmacy, correct? No. Thank you. Did any other witnesses get your attention this week? We heard more about the state of Eric and Corey's marriage from the wife of Eric's former business partner, Allison Wright.

[10:50] 2019, Corrie told her they were having trouble and she felt trapped because of their prenuptial agreement. We've also heard from a forensic accountant who was describing how deeply in debt Corrie was in the months leading up to Eric's death. All right. Well, Karen, thanks for bringing us these updates. It's great. [11:07] Thanks, Lester. [11:10] We have our own quick update for you about this trial on Wednesday afternoon after I taped my conversation with Karen. The prosecution called Robert Josh Grossman to the stand. The man prosecutors say was Corey Richens' lover at the time of Eric's murder. And the man, they say, fueled her murder plot. We'll tell you all about his testimony next week. [11:34] Coming up, after a man was shot dead on a country road, [11:39] charges were filed. Now, the man's sister is fighting to change that. [11:49] Insurance is not one size fits all. [11:52] That's why drivers have trusted progressives' "name your price" tool for years. [11:58] Just tell Progressive what you want to pay. [12:00] And they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. [12:03] Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. [12:08] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. [12:15] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

[12:32] "'What's in your wallet?' [12:33] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [12:41] This episode is brought to you by Penn Foster. [12:45] Sometimes things don't go as planned, especially with high school. [12:49] When you start to feel like you're falling behind, [12:52] Having another option can make a real difference. [12:55] Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built for flexibility. [13:02] So whether you're hoping to go back and finish what you started, [13:06] Or you're the parent of a teen who needs a different approach to education. [13:10] There is a way forward. [13:11] With self-paced courses, you have the freedom to learn on your own schedule. [13:17] That way you can fit school around everything else going on in your life and stop falling behind. [13:22] Don't just get back on track. Start moving forward with Penn Foster. [13:27] Visit penfoster.edu slash dateline to learn more. [13:36] For our next story, we're headed to a stretch of Country Road in South Carolina. Two and a half years ago, a 33-year-old man by the name of Scott Spivey was shot dead there. Oh my God, anything? Oh my God! What happened, ma'am? What happened? The men who shot him, Weldon Boyd and Kenneth Bradley Williams, told police they were acting in self-defense. And the state's top prosecutor believed them. They have never faced criminal charges.

[14:05] refused to let it go. All my family has ever asked for was a fair and honest investigation. And after filing a wrongful death suit, she uncovered phone calls, 911 calls, and other material she says proved Spivey was killed in cold blood. And local police officers may have helped cover it up. At a recent four-day hearing, a civil court judge got to take a look at all that material. Dateline producer Carol Gable was there. [14:33] Carol, good to have you. Thanks for being with us. Thanks, Lester. It's good to be here. So, first off, tell us a little bit about the man, Scott Spivey, who was killed in all this. [14:42] Well, he was 33 years old, an insurance adjuster, and apparently on September 9th, he was at a local bar watching football and drinking for several hours before getting behind the wheel of his Chevy Silverado. And witnesses saw him drive very erratically down U.S. Highway 9. [15:12] at them, but most times just waving it in the air. - I am on highway number nine. There is a guy that is waving a gun in front of me. He's all over the road. And I have his license plate numbered. [15:25] That's when he crossed paths with Weldon Boyd and his passenger, Bradley Williams. Where were they coming from? Well, they had been running errands all day. They were going up Highway 9 as well. Okay, so walk us through how this escalates. The clearest sort of window into Weldon's thinking is the 911 call, because he calls 911 and then leaves them on speakerphone.

[15:55] the whole time this is happening. Hey, I've got a guy pointing a gun at me, driving. And he's describing how Scott Spivey continues to weave in and out. And in fact, at one point, Scott Spivey... [16:09] drives Weldon Boyd off the road into the grass median. And he basically said several times on this 911 tape that if this guy does not slow down and stop, that he would put him down. Listen, this dude shoots at me. We're going to put him down. Sort of like you talk about putting a rabid dog down. According to some witnesses, Weldon Boyd was [16:39] of speed more than 100 miles an hour at times. Finally, they come to an intersection of Camp Swamp Road. So instead of moving forward to his destination, Weldon Boyd is still going after Scott Spivey. People were still calling 911, which is why we know what was happening. So Scott Spivey eventually comes to a stop at Camp Swamp Road in his black truck. Weldon Boyd and [17:09] truck behind him. Take us through what happens next. So by now, Scott's Bobby has jumped out of his truck, and he has a gun by several reports. It's down by his side, and he's yelling, stop following me. He told the guy, do not follow me anymore. The guy in the white truck had his

[17:33] The guy in the black truck kind of like moved his pistol. And as he turns to go back to his truck, he shot in the back. The guy in the white truck just unloaded a complete magazine. It's a guy shot through his back window, and I think he might have hit him. Now, there is also testimony that Scott Spivey fired a round that went into the dirt. But he climbs back into the cab of his car, and he's mortally wounded. [18:03] who declined to prosecute the men, saying it was a clear-cut example of self-defense under the Stand Your Ground law. Explain exactly what it allows you to do. What Stand Your Ground in South Carolina is supposed to do is protect you and give you civil and criminal immunity if someone is attacking you or threatening you with deadly force in a place you have a right to be. Scott's family didn't accept the Stand Your Ground explanation. [18:33] And chief among those would be Scott's sister, Jennifer, very, very close siblings, you know, peas in a pod. [18:44] decides to file a wrongful death suit against these two guys. She finds buried within the discovery more than 90 phone calls that Weldon Boyd had made. [18:59] How is it that all these recordings exist? [19:02] Well, Weldon Boyd had a girlfriend, and she got pregnant, and they broke up. So he started trying to get custody. So he flipped a switch on his phone that meant all of his phone calls were recorded all the time because he thought he might catch her in some incriminating statement or something that would help in his case. What did they reveal, those phone calls?

[19:30] After the shooting that kills Scott Spivey, he says things like to his mother, I had a blast. To someone else, I had a good time. So it didn't necessarily paint the picture of someone who was fearing for their life at that particular moment. Some of these calls that raised eyebrows were ones that Boyd exchanged with local police officers. [20:00] high up person and says, I just shot somebody. I had to shoot them. And is told, I got the people coming that need to come. And then there's another moment in body camera tape when [20:19] Another officer walks up to Weldon with a piece of paper, a pad in his hand that says, act like a victim. After the calls became public, Boyd's friend on the police force resigned, although his attorney told us he denies any wrongdoing and had nothing to do with the investigation into the shooting. And the police officer who wrote the message, act like a victim, was fired. The way the shooting was investigated is now under review by a grand jury, [20:49] That's not all. This seemed to shake loose how prosecutors were thinking about the criminal side of things. After this happened, the attorney general appointed a sort of special prosecutor to have another look at this case. So take us to the hearing that concluded just a few days ago. What was it about?

[21:07] It was significant because Jennifer's quest to sue Weldon Boyd and Bradley Williams in civil court for wrongful death depended on the two of them being stripped of their stand-your-ground privilege. So this was a four-day hearing geared to a party of one because the judge was the one who had to make that decision. [21:37] his story under oath. Let's take a listen to some of it. Did you intend to hurt that man? No. Would you have fired him had he not fired you? No, I gave him every chance I ate. [21:55] Thank you. [21:56] He just got back in the truck. [22:00] Weldon started his testimony sobbing and extraordinarily upset, but then... [22:07] He just stuck by a story that he didn't have a choice but to shoot Scott Spivey. [22:13] So what did the judge decide? [22:15] He said he was basically stunned and shocked at Weldon Boyd's behavior, that it didn't seem like stand your ground at all. [22:25] It's not credible. It seems that driving over 100 miles an hour trying to keep up with a guy with a gun is foolish. [22:31] I find that [22:33] Mr. Boyd's request for immunities, the NAT. The NAT NAT was Weldon Boyd can be sued civilly, and there's a possibility the AG's special prosecutor may in fact get arrested.

[22:47] charges levied against him criminally. So what did the judge decide about the other person who was in that vehicle, Mr. Williams? [22:56] Well, the judge wanted to take a little more time to make that decision, and he has asked both sides, the defense and the plaintiffs, to submit briefs for him to look at. And I believe there's going to be due in the next week or so, and then he will come back and make that decision. After the judge gave his ruling, Jennifer spoke outside court. Let's take a listen. [23:20] It's been a lot of no's in the last two and a half years, and this is the first yes. This is just a start on the road to trying to get justice for him. Okay, fascinating case, Carol. It'll be interesting to see what happens. [23:33] Coming up, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We'll bring you the latest from the murder trial of former college football player Rashawn Jones. And the one-time MLB pitcher Dan Serafini, convicted of shooting his in-laws, finally learns his fate. Plus, the do's and don'ts of photo lineups. A retired police chief shares his tips. [23:56] Bye. [23:59] Need to pay a friend back for festival tickets or a morning coffee run? Apple Cash makes it simple. Just tap plus in the Messages app to find Apple Cash. No need to jump between apps or search for usernames. It's a private and secure way to send money. Send cash right in the chat with Apple Cash. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot Bank. Member FDIC. Terms apply.

[24:30] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. [24:48] "'What's in your wallet?' [24:49] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [24:57] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. [25:15] Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. [25:34] Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Roundup is Dateline field producer Alex Loray. Hi, Alex. Hey, Lester. First, we are going to head back to Miami, Florida with the latest in the murder trial of Rashawn Jones, the University of Miami football player accused of killing his fellow teammate, Brian Pata. [26:00] Huge news from inside the courtroom. Before we get to that, remind us where we left off in this case. Yeah, sure. So we left off right as closing arguments were getting underway. The prosecutors told the jury that Rashaun Jones killed Brian Pata out of envy and jealousy. They leaned hard on the videotaped testimony of an eyewitness who identified Rashaun from a photo lineup as the person that he saw at the scene that night. As for the defense, they said there just wasn't any evidence connecting Rashaun to the crime.

[26:30] 100% sure of his ID. Deliberations began last Thursday. On Monday, the jurors sent a note to the judge. What did they say? [26:38] Yeah, they said that they were deadlocked. The judge encouraged them to keep trying. But after another hour of deliberations, the jurors again said that they would not be able to render a verdict. And so the judge declared a mistrial. At this time, I will declare a mistrial and a home jury. You were there in the courtroom for that moment. What was it like? Yeah, so, you know, obviously the Pata family, they've been there every single day. They seemed like they were in disbelief. Outside of the courthouse, after everything was over, Brian's brother Edwin spoke to the media. [27:08] he's convinced now more than ever that Jones is guilty. Let's listen to Edwin's interview with our affiliate NBC6 South Florida. Like there are some things that I heard throughout this trial that I've never even heard of and that gave us more confidence that he's the guy, he's the actual killer. And we're confident with that and we're going to stay with that. He knows that he did that. Alex, you were able to speak with one of the jurors afterwards. What insight did the juror [27:38] and for this juror, the motive didn't really make sense. [27:41] Did this juror share the breakdown of how the jurors were divided? They did. By the end of the... [27:47] First day of deliberations, which was last Thursday, it was 5 p.m. [27:52] to acquit. They went away over the weekend and returned Monday, and the holdout juror wouldn't change their mind, and that's what led to the mistrial. And prosecutors announced Wednesday that they will retry the case against Rashawn Jones. His retrial is scheduled to begin May 18th, and of course, we'll be watching it closely. Next up, we're turning to a Michigan courthouse, where a trial we've been watching closely is winding down. Dale Warner is charged with

[28:22] 2021 and concealing her body inside a fertilizer tank on his Lenawee County farm. He has pleaded not guilty. Alex, what's happening in court at this stage? A lot. The prosecution and the defense both had big moments. The prosecution took the jurors on a site visit, so they didn't just hear about the Warner farm, they walked it, giving jurors a firsthand look at the property where Dee's body was found. And Alex, the prosecution rested on Tuesday, so the jury also got to hear [28:52] defense witnesses, what were the highlights there? The main witness the defense called was D's brother, Greg Hardy. The defense challenged Greg about a text that he'd sent. You indicated that you have potential liability if the prosecutor is not successful in getting a conviction against Mr. Warner, correct? That's what the text says. And you wrote that text, right? I did. [29:14] The defense was suggesting that this was suspicious behavior. And after that, the defense rested. [29:20] We'll have an update next week. [29:23] And finally, we're off to California, where former Major League Baseball pitcher Dan Serafini learned his fate this week. He was found guilty back in July for the murder of his father-in-law, Gary Spore, and the attempted murder of his mother-in-law, Wendy Wood. Alex, first remind listeners about this case. [29:51] Prosecutors said Serafini plotted to kill his in-laws over money so that he'd have access to a multi-million dollar inheritance. Serafini made several attempts to win himself a new trial since he was convicted back in July. That's right. All those attempts, however, were denied by a judge, and Serafini's sentencing moved forward last Friday. The court hereby sentences you to life without the possibility of parole. Victim impact statements immediately followed.

[30:20] about Dan Serafini. He is a monster that knows no moral boundaries and has zero reservations about taking lives to benefit himself. She even asked the judge to put Serafini in solitary confinement because she's afraid he will conspire with fellow inmates to have her killed. Then Serafini himself got to say a few words. In this court, I was called arrogant, manipulative, and a liar. I accept my failings, but I have never heard of her. The judge wasn't too keen [30:50] about himself. What I heard from you is all about you and not enough about the victims that died in this case. Some of the jurors who convicted Serafini returned to court for his sentencing. They talked to our affiliate KCRA outside the courthouse afterwards. I think it's a moment for closure for all of us. We really wanted to be here in support of the family. It was a tragedy [31:20] These murders, it's awful. Well, Alex, so much from jurors this week. Thanks for bringing us these updates. Thanks for having me, Lester. [31:32] For our final story this week, we're talking about something that got our attention while we've been covering the trial of Rashawn Jones over the past few weeks. Photo lineups, as we just talked about in Roundup. The prosecution's star witness was an eyewitness

[31:50] lineup, but the defense had questions about his identification. It made us curious about how detectives conduct a photo lineup in the first place and the obstacles that exist to getting a solid ID. My next guest, Ken Wallentine, is a retired chief of the West Jordan, Utah Police Department with over four decades of experience in law enforcement. Welcome to the show, Ken. Great to have you with us. Thank you. Ken, we've all seen photo lineups done in movies and we've heard [32:20] Dateline episodes, but walk us through what the procedure is actually like in real life. You know, the first thing in a photo lineup is we want to start out right. Typically, you'll see a minimum of six photographs, sometimes a few more, I hope, nevertheless. And typically, that's one suspect, one person we believe might be the perpetrator, and at least five, what we call fillers. In other words, people who are similar in appearance, not to the suspect, [32:50] witness. We want the witness to be told, you know, the perpetrator may or may not be present in the photo lineup. We assure the witness that the investigation will continue regardless of their identification or inability to make an identification. We caution them not to look to the detective or whoever's administering the photo lineup for any guidance. And then one final thing in administering

[33:20] it's a blind administration's where the photo ID lineup administrator doesn't know the suspect's identity. And the purpose of that is to eliminate either intentional or unconscious cueing, because even subtle cues from the administrator in a breathing, posture, tone of voice can influence the witness's memory and also the witness's choice. You've been in law enforcement for four decades, a police chief for two of them. How has the process of police lineups evolved over the years? [33:50] law enforcement. And when my grandfather was doing identification, they were still doing live lineups. We typically don't do those anymore. Photo lineups became fairly popular in the late 1950s, the late 1960s, when we started really collecting photographs, mugshots, if you will, and making them available. In the 1960s, there was very limited training on how to administer an eyewitness identification procedure. The detective who was the investigator took the photographs, put them [34:20] And then when I became a cop in the late 1970s, really about the beginning of the 1980s, there was a scientific awakening. And so in the 80s and 90s, we moved from assuming memory works like a video recording to understanding that it's reconstructive and vulnerable to suggestions. Finally, in the last even less than decade, we have seen courts and legislatures drive best practices as they're embedded into evidentiary rules and evidentiary laws.

[34:50] technique, but one that has to be handled very carefully because of just human reaction and how we process information. So with that in mind, how common is it for police to use a photo lineup? Well, you wouldn't see a photo lineup used, for example, in a shoplifting at a convenience store, typically. Certainly in serious felony cases, aggravated assault, sexual assaults, people who may witness a homicide. In those kind of cases, it's all stops are pulled, [35:20] to identify the perpetrator. And very often, if we have an eyewitness, that will involve a photographic lineup procedure. All right. I was struck by this one figure. According to the National Institute of Justice, mistaken eyewitness identifications have played a role in 75% of wrongful convictions. That's a pretty alarming high number. Ken, what could make an eyewitness pick the wrong person? One thing is that they haven't been given proper instructions. They go [35:50] it's a little logical, I think, to believe that one of those six people is the perpetrator. And they also feel like they have an obligation to identify someone. And Luster, we all inflate our confidence in our memories. And when you couple that with the pressure or the direction to identify a suspect, maybe you think it's your civic duty, maybe you're anxious to see justice done for a crime that was perpetrated against you, that's a dangerous combination. Once a witness or victim

[36:20] How does that impact the investigation? Is there anything the police should or shouldn't do afterward? Really good detectives will consider that eyewitness identification, and then they will balance it with the other information that they have, and they will pursue any other leads they can. We don't want officers, we don't want investigators to be overconfident. You know, eyewitness testimony can be powerful. It can also be vulnerable. [36:50] made that's simply another brick in the wall, that's simply another step taken, but not conclusive and not a terminal point for the investigation. Well, Ken, you've been great on all this. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. Thank you. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Make sure to check out Josh's brand new original podcast series, Trace of Suspicion. After a Marine dies unexpectedly, investigators suspect his widow had something [37:20] setting off a criminal case that takes a stunning turn. This case started because of the breast implants. Think about it. If she had a nose job, would we even be talking about it? On March 10th, you can listen to the first two episodes completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to start listening now, ad-free, with early access to subsequent episodes. And if that's not enough, Josh, for you,

[37:50] He has a brand new Dateline episode for you. After a beloved professor is found murdered at home, the prime suspect is just within investigator's reach, but not for long. [38:02] He said to bring my Kevlar. Bring your Kevlar because Mexico's a dangerous place or he's going to shoot you. Right. I'm not sure. Watch The Professor and the Poet, Friday at 9, 8 central. [38:13] on NBC. Thanks for listening, everyone. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Carolyn Casey, and Keanu Reid. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone-Groff, [38:26] and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff. Production and fact-checking help by Audrey Abrahams. Veronica Mazzaca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer. [38:45] And Liz Cole is Senior Executive Producer of Dateline. All right. Thanks. Bye-bye. [38:58] If you walk into a room and can't remember why, it could be nothing or something more. If you confuse a familiar recipe, it could be a slip up or it could be associated with amyloid plaque buildup in the brain. Amyloid is a protein that your body produces naturally, but a buildup in the brain could lead to memory and thinking issues. [39:18] to see what may be behind your memory and thinking issues. Talk to your doctor about getting a full assessment. It's never too early to start the conversation. Visit amyloid.com to learn more.