How an anti-police violence protest ended in a teen’s death

[00:00] I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. Our story today starts in the summer of 2020. Remember, that's when protests were happening all over the country after the killing of George Floyd. [00:17] But in Seattle, something happened that didn't really happen anywhere else in the U.S. A standoff with protesters went on for days. [00:30] middle of the city. [00:31] in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. [00:33] They just left. [00:34] And once they were gone, protesters set up an Occupy-style camp around it. The camp was called CHOP, the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. It was an experiment in a different kind of world, with its own medical teams and its own armed security. People there believed they were building a better version of society, one that rejected police violence. But three weeks in, that experiment ended. [01:04] The shooting at the camp and the gunfire came from the people who were actually trying to defend the camp. A black teenager died. Six years later, the case remains unsolved. In a new eight-part series from NPR's Embedded, reporters Will James and Sidney Brownstone take us inside CHOP to find out what happened the night of the shooting and how violence came to occupy this anti-violence occupation.

[01:34] we're bringing you the first episode in the series and new episodes will be released weekly over the coming months in the Embedded podcast. One more thing before we start. This episode includes explicit language and the sound of gun violence. [01:50] Okay, here's Sydney and Will. [01:55] I remember the shooting happened on a Monday morning, a few blocks from where I used to live, in a neighborhood called Capitol Hill. An editor called and asked if I could go down and report from the scene. [02:11] So I get dressed and I run out of my apartment. Everything looks normal at first. People are walking their dogs, they're grabbing their fancy coffee drinks. I'm walking by rainbow crosswalks and a leather daddy bar. This is Seattle. [02:30] But then I cross over onto 12th Avenue and... [02:35] It's like stepping into a different universe. [02:40] I end up walking into CHOP. CHOP was an Occupy-style protest that included a field of tents, there were crowds, art installations, and makeshift barricades. All of it took up about eight square blocks of my neighborhood. It had been there for three weeks. But this morning, the morning of June 29, 2020,

[03:05] to protest [03:06] It's a crime sin. [03:10] Crowds of protesters are screaming in the middle of the street. [03:17] One of them seems particularly frazzled and is carrying around a baseball bat. [03:25] There are members of the black clergy there praying over a blood-smeared car. [03:36] Here's what I learned. Two black teens had been shot hours earlier. One of them was dead. His name was Antonio Mays Jr. [03:58] My goal was to try to find witnesses who could tell me what had happened. They started down by the park, and everybody started running, and were ducking down and whatnot. People staying at CHOP [04:09] tell me that they saw a white Jeep driving around erratically. Antonio Mayes Jr. was in that Jeep. — The car was driving around all crazy, like he was going to hit someone. — Witnesses say they heard shots coming from the Jeep [04:25] And then people inside CHOP shot back. There was, like, at least, like, 30 shots that went off. Protesters thought that whoever was in that white Jeep... [04:35] was firing at them, that CHOP was under attack. We are out here as peaceful protesters, but we do have to defend ourselves when there are threats against our lives. I mean, when you come in shooting, I don't think it's that much of a surprise when you get shot back.

[04:55] I felt really unnerved by the certainty among the people I talked to [05:06] Things just seemed so chaotic on the ground that I didn't know how anyone could be certain of anything. And the story of what happened seemed to be hardening before my eyes. I was covering the protests in 2020 as well. And like Sydney, I was waiting for answers about this shooting. Why would this Black teenager attack CHOP? [05:35] that night, and police, were they going to arrest anyone? But instead, years passed, and this case faded from public consciousness. As reporters, we turned our attention to other stories. The protesters' version of events went pretty much unchallenged. But Will and I couldn't shake this feeling that there was more to what happened. One of the complaints that was filed this week [06:05] who lost his son. [06:06] Antonio Mays Jr. was 16 years old. In 2023, Antonio's dad, Antonio Mays Sr., filed a lawsuit that told a different story. He said his son wasn't attacking CHOP. The lies that those people up there told about my son angered me so much. He said Antonio Jr. had actually come to Seattle to join the protest, to be part of the civil rights movement of his generation.

[06:33] He went to take a stand. [06:35] And I, you know, I had to be proud of him for having the courage for that. [06:39] And he said whoever shot Antonio didn't act in self-defense, but killed him in cold blood. [06:46] I'm not a legal... [06:48] professional, but I think it's common knowledge that it's not legal to allow vigilantes to police their own zone. [07:01] Some of the questions we'd been asking ourselves from the beginning came rushing back. Who was Antonio Mays Jr.? And if he did come to Seattle to protest, how did he end up as someone protesters felt they needed to defend themselves against? [07:20] Was whoever shot Antonio really protecting the protest? And why do we still not know who they are or their motives all these years later? [07:32] We investigated these questions for more than a year, interviewing close to 100 people and reviewing evidence that's never been public before. [07:43] But the more we looked into this case, the more we ran into this circle of silence from protesters themselves to the police and officials who were leading the city. We started to see what happens when the people in charge and the people demanding change seem to decide that protecting themselves is more important than their responsibility to anyone else.

[08:13] at KUOW, a public radio station in Seattle. [08:20] From NPR's Embedded, this is We Keep Us Safe. [08:27] When we come back, Will and Sidney continue the story. [08:32] Bye. [08:33] Bye. [08:35] This message is from AT&T with your summer essential, the iPhone 17 Pro. Its center stage front camera auto-adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. Right now at AT&T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade-in. Requires eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone for details. [09:01] This message comes from Mattress Firm. Sleeping hot can ruin your night. If you wake up sweaty, Mattress Firm can help. Their sleep experts are trained to match you with the right cooling mattress, like the Tempur-Breeze, designed to deliver cooling comfort for hot sleepers. Visit Mattress Firm and get a $300 instant gift, plus next-day delivery when you upgrade to a Tempur-Pedic. They make sleep easy. Restrictions apply. Next-day delivery available on select mattresses and subject to location. [09:31] for details. [09:32] This message comes from Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast, so you've got a curious mind. Did you know that drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average? Visit Progressive.com and get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[10:01] By the time we started investigating this case, a narrative about Antonio had been out there for years. [10:08] Protesters at CHOP said he was in the white jeep attacking them, maybe even shooting, when he was killed. [10:15] We knew Antonio was 16 years old and from Southern California, and not much else, because Antonio's dad wasn't talking to reporters back when the shooting happened. But after Antonio Sr. filed a lawsuit, we thought there was a chance he'd open up, that he could tell us more about Antonio. [10:34] Hello, Mr. Maze. Hello. [10:37] He talked to us from his home in Southern California while he was also taking care of his kids. [10:42] Do you have questions for us before we start asking you questions? [10:46] You were there that, like, right after it happened? [10:48] Yes. [10:50] So you guys got to see the aftermath. [10:54] Yeah, I saw the car and I spoke to people on the ground. [11:00] - Antonio Sr. painted this picture of a father and son taking in and processing all of the protests breaking out across the country that summer. - The George Floyd thing happened. He sees a current example of police brutality, bigger than the Rodney King. I mean, this was a real life [11:19] black movement against police brutality that was going down in his lifetime. [11:24] Antonio Sr. would record protests happening in LA, where he worked, and share those videos with his son.

[11:31] My son asked me, he said, Dad, if you didn't have us, would you be joining those riots? [11:37] And, uh... [11:38] you know, for fear of him being excited to go join. [11:41] You know, this is the one time I felt like, damn. [11:45] Did I give him too much information? You know, did I... [11:48] Did I encourage him in a way that I don't want him to be encouraged right now? Because I didn't want him to go join that fight. [11:55] . [11:57] About a month after George Floyd's murder, Antonio Sr. learned his son had gone to join that fight. [12:04] Antonio Jr. left his home for Seattle on June 23, 2020, without telling his dad. [12:12] Antonio Sr. filed a missing persons report as soon as he discovered his son had left. [12:17] I had... [12:18] no idea that he would [12:20] travel that far [12:22] you [12:23] He was shot and killed at the Seattle protest less than a week later. [12:31] Antonio Sr. doesn't know what Antonio was doing during his days at CHOP. But he doesn't believe the protesters' narrative, because it just sounds nothing like the son he raised. These books are stacked two, back to back. [12:45] One, two, three, four... [12:47] As Antonio Sr. and I are speaking over Zoom, he walks over to a bookshelf. These go all the way. [12:55] These go all the way down. And he starts pulling out these worn paperback, thick, thick fantasy novels his son used to read.

[13:06] R.A. Salvatore [13:08] And Raymond Fice, he used to love the legend of Drizzt. [13:12] I was like, oh my God, Antonio was a nerd. In a way that is super relatable. I should be clear, I was also a fantasy nerd. [13:21] Wow. So definitely dozens in there. He was reading dozens of these books. He read all these and some of them multiple times over. When we would go to work, he would have any one of these in his pocket at any time wherever we was at. [13:37] Antonio Sr. runs a barbecue business. My family's been barbecuing since before I was born. And he was training his son to take over. He'd be at home practicing slicing his onions, Julianne style. [13:51] Junior and his dad would go to farmers markets and sell their handcrafted barbecue sauce. My son came to life at those markets. Like they would hang out, have fun talking to customers, have fun talking to the other vendors. There was one night when my son made 120 pounds of asparagus and he just had this cast iron skillet. He would put it all together and he just made it over and over again, over and over again. And it's lying out the window. [14:21] God, look at him go. [14:27] Antonio Sr. told his son all about Black history. [14:31] I taught my son what is to be Black in America. He raised him with a deep understanding of the struggle for Black liberation.

[14:38] Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, the Watts riots, the Harlem riots, the Black Panther Party. [14:44] He taught him about the dangers young black men can face from police and what to do if they confront you. [14:50] I've been harassed by police on multiple occasions. So I teach my son to be careful. [14:57] So that when he's harassed by police, because I assume he'll be harassed by police, that he knows how to behave, knows how to speak. He knows how to move. [15:06] Antonio Sr. has mixed feelings about this now. [15:10] to be honest. [15:13] If it meant that I had my son back, I wouldn't teach my son black history. [15:17] because I want to have him back right now." I said, "Man, they hell with Black history." [15:27] I know this might be difficult to talk about, but how did you find out about your son's death? And what were your communications like with the city after it happened? The sheriff came to my house, knocked on my door, told me the bad news. I talked to the detective, the chief of police at that time, called me once or twice. [15:53] I need justice for my son. We're working on that. [15:58] We've got some leads we're going to follow up on. You know, this could take a while, but we're working on it. And when's the last time you had any contact with the Seattle police regarding your son's death? Do you remember what year?

[16:14] 2020. [16:17] Their phones just went silent. I couldn't get a hold of the detective. Someone said that the case got reassigned and someone else told me that the case was closed. [16:28] And he said eventually people just stopped picking up. I still don't have any answers. Couldn't get a hold of anybody. [16:36] This takes us by surprise. Seattle police have told us their investigation into Antonio's death is still open and active. We expected they'd been updating Antonio Sr. over the years. But he really doesn't know more than us. It made us wonder, are Seattle police still investigating? [16:58] up on it. I should know exactly what happened. I should have some answers. I should have some closure. [17:05] "Oh, this is what happened, Mr. Mays. I should be getting a report." [17:11] This is what these people did. This is what happened to your son. This is who's responsible for it. This is the action that we took. [17:19] After our interview, we reached out to the Seattle Police Department. We wanted to know when they last communicated with Antonio Sr., but they declined to comment because of the, quote, open murder investigation. [17:40] Thank you. [17:41] Antonio Sr. sued the city of Seattle in 2023. He says the killing of his son was not self-defense, that it was a violent crime, and the city let it happen.

[17:52] Clearly, there's no consequence because that's why I'm here on an interview with you. [17:59] Our goal is to speak to as many people who were there witnessing what happened, and our hope is that some of them might be willing to tell us what actually happened. [18:07] This is open in your face. [18:10] You know, how are there no answers? [18:13] And there's a reason Antonio Sr. is so baffled that this case is still unsolved. It's because so many of the minutes before and after Antonio's death were live-streamed. And many of these videos have been public for years. [18:31] The events leading up to CHOP and CHOP itself unfolded in about a month, but it felt like years' worth of history were compressed in that time. [18:43] when thousands of protesters showed up in Seattle streets to confront police brutality. Then police unleashed crowd control weapons. A standoff formed outside a police precinct. And that escalated for a week until police decided to retreat. They abandoned the precinct. CHOP grew up in the roughly eight square blocks around that vacant precinct. Police were hands off. [19:13] emergencies. And through it all, people chronicled almost every detail on live-streamed videos, with thousands of viewers following along in real time. We're out here live in Seattle, and we're going to keep seeing what we run into. There were so many live streamers at CHOP that sometimes it felt like you couldn't walk 10 feet without seeing someone documenting it on a phone.

[19:43] I'm out here. You had live streams from citizen journalists, from independent journalists. Hey, you mind giving up a couple words on how you feel about this autonomous zone going on out here? You had YouTubers. I'm gonna try my best to keep the camera away from people who don't want to be filmed. [20:01] all broadcasting their version of CHOP. Thanks for following me, bro. Thank you very much for tuning in this evening. Stay tuned, guys. [20:13] It made us wonder, what could we learn from these live streams about what really happened the night Antonio was killed? If you see any shells on the ground, pick those up, pocket them, take them home. That's coming up after the break. [20:34] This message comes from Mattress Firm. Sleeping hot can ruin your night. If you wake up sweaty, Mattress Firm can help. Their sleep experts are trained to match you with the right cooling mattress, like the Tempur-Breeze, designed to deliver cooling comfort for hot sleepers. Visit Mattress Firm and get a $300 instant gift plus next-day delivery when you upgrade to a Tempur-Pedic. They make sleep easy. Restrictions apply. Next-day delivery available on select mattresses and subject to location. [21:04] for details. [21:06] Support for this podcast and the following message come from strawberry.me. [21:11] Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place?

[21:18] Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at strawberry.me slash NPR. [21:37] When we started investigating Antonio's death in 2025, we knew we had to revisit old live streams recorded that night. So we enlisted the help of our friend and colleague David Gutman of The Seattle Times, who'd been on this story from the beginning. [21:52] These videos have been online since the night of the shooting. There are three videos in particular that we've watched over and over again. They give us kind of a rough sketch of what happened that night. [22:04] And the more we've watched them, the more we keep noticing new stuff, new details, new potential clues. Who's this guy? [22:14] So this video starts a little before 3 a.m. It's... [22:17] shot by this live streamer who's standing in this big park that's right at the middle of Chop. They're in the midst of all these tents, and this person is panicked. More shots fired, more shots fired. More shots fired, more shots fired. The person recording sees a car driving through the park. [22:33] on a turf field that's normally used for soccer, baseball, frisbee. [22:37] The live streamer says they hear gunshots coming from the car. [22:40] Car has been circling around, shooting more shots into tents. [22:46] We can see the car the live streamer's talking about. It's a quick glimpse on the video. This white Jeep is what's got everyone all freaked out.

[22:54] It's that white car that's been circling around. [22:59] We now know Antonio and another teen are inside this white Jeep. [23:04] I am ready to die for the cause, but that doesn't mean I want to be in the way of a fucking drive-by shooter. [23:09] This live streamer sends out a message basically saying that this white Jeep is attacking CHOP. But we can't see enough in the video to tell. [23:19] The next live stream starts minutes later. This one is shot from an apartment right above Chop. You see people running in the streets below. You hear shouting. It sounds like a war zone. [23:32] We can hear what happens next, the fatal shooting of Antonio, but we can't see it. There's a tree blocking our view. [23:41] And then the boys inside the white Jeep crash into these cement barricades that the city put up around Chop. [23:49] Thank you. [23:50] you hear more gunshots. [23:54] Shots directed at the white Jeep. [24:00] you hear the engine rev. It kind of backs up a little, like it's trying to get out of there. [24:07] And then it crashes into the barricades again. [24:11] It's a lot of gunshots this time. [24:18] And, you know, it's dark out, but underneath the halo of a street lamp, you see a shadow outside the passenger door of the white Jeep.

[24:27] And then you hear this just kind of surreal line. [24:32] Oh, you're not dead? [24:36] Want to get pistol whipped? [24:38] Thank you. [24:39] - - [24:40] Yeah, that's what you hear. [24:43] All you can make out from the speaker who says this is their shadow, but they seem to be yelling at the boys in the Jeep. [24:49] Boys who at this point have been shot multiple times. [24:53] Who yells this? [24:54] And is this the person who shot Antonio? [24:59] Yo, shots are fired. Shots are fired, y'all. Shots are fired. So there's this third video. It's shot by a woman named Ashley Durellis. She runs up to the crashed Jeep just moments after we hear the last gunshots. Move out the way! Move out the way! It's chaos. Back up, back up. Another shooter, that's another car. People are all over the place. [25:18] There's people trying to treat the two boys who've been shot. Jesus! Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus! Lord! Stop yelling, please! One of these boys is Antonio Mayes Jr. And the other one is a 14-year-old named [25:33] Robert West. Somebody shot. Somebody shot. They're taking him to the hospital. Go, go, go, go, go, go. [25:45] - Oh. [25:46] Protesters put these kids in two different cars to try and bring them to medical care. And... [25:53] Once they leave... [25:55] The scene of the shooting is pretty quiet. That's not your blood, Ray? Of course it's not my blood. We see...

[26:01] The crashed white jeep. [26:03] its windows are broken and it is [26:06] riddled with bullet holes. [26:09] There is medical debris on the ground from when volunteer medics tried to treat the boys. After pulling them out of the car, there's gauze and blood and broken glass. And there are about a dozen people [26:25] people milling around the scene in the dark. [26:29] Thank you. [26:30] Ashley Durellis films a guy walking around, and you never see this guy's face. [26:36] You get a quick glimpse of him from the chest down. It kind of looks like he's wearing work boots, khaki, cargo-type pants. [26:44] an unzipped leather jacket, [26:46] He's carrying a plastic bag. [26:48] Right as he appears on camera, we hear this voice saying, [26:52] Unless you see any shells on the ground, pick those up, pocket them, take them home. Talking about hiding evidence, you know, stealing or destroying evidence. Hell yeah, no evidence. Ashley is... [27:03] To put it generously, she's encouraging. [27:06] Pick that shit up. Yeah. Pick up my shells. Because I want to get the fuck out of here. Well, thank you. Yeah. Hey, I'm sorry I got to take off. No, I know. I don't trust the cops. I don't trust. But you needed to be here. Yeah. Y'all don't know who I am. I know. I don't care to know. All I know is thank you. That's it. [27:21] Okay. [27:24] What is she thanking him for? [27:26] in her mind. [27:27] In her mind, I don't want to say. In my mind, she is thanking him for shooting the two boys who...

[27:35] I think, in her mind, were a threat to protesters there. [27:48] You watch... [27:50] Ashley Durellis' video, and you're like, [27:53] Well, this will be solved real soon. [28:02] So here's what we see across these three live streams. [28:06] First, a protester announces that a white Jeep driving on the playfield is attacking CHOP. [28:13] Minutes later, we hear one or more people shooting up that Jeep as it crashes into a barricade. [28:19] And then we glimpse someone walking around in the aftermath saying he needs to pick up his shells. [28:25] So we've got some blanks to fill in here. And that means finding people who were there who will talk to us. And, you know, if we're looking for who was at the scene, the only people I kind of know for sure were at the scene were the people who shot the videos. Did they see anything that we can't see on the videos? Did they talk to anyone? Do they know who's saying, do you want to get pistol whipped? Who is saying, hey, pick up my shells? And so... [28:53] Ashley Durellis was one of the first people we reached out to. Can you put my name as Ashley, quote, aesthetics Durellis? [29:00] She was literally at work. She works at like a... A restaurant, right? A cafe, a restaurant. I definitely can't wait to invite you guys around when you come down here.

[29:11] And not only is she at work, but she's like the only one at work as it's opening. Hold on, give me one second. [29:23] the drive-thru. I'm not going to throw it in real quick. It's a chicken and a waffle with senders. Can you do it? I'm just on the phone real quick. Who was Ashley Dorellis before she ended up documenting the aftermath of this shooting? I guess I would call her a protester slash filmmaker. She is filming from all these protests. San Jose, California. Oakland, LA, San Francisco. I had gotten some notoriety because I had been going live streaming like every single day. [29:53] of the protests. She said she wanted to document it. - That was how I ended up immersing myself in the Seattle community. [30:01] We really want to ask Ashley... [30:04] if she has any more information about the man on her video saying, "Pick up my shells." [30:10] Actually, much like many of the live streamers who are there most of the time, [30:17] purposely is like pointing her camera down. She's, she's shooting people with a camera from like shoulders down. There is a, [30:25] often a concerted effort not to film people's faces. [30:29] And what happened when you asked Ashley to describe who this guy was? [30:33] She said it was a big, fat white guy. He was a big white man. Do you think he's one of the shooters? [30:40] He is. He absolutely is the shooter. Do you know who he is? I mean, beyond just like a guy in a video?

[30:46] Interview with this motherfucker? No! Say that again? Sorry. [30:51] I didn't have an interview with him. I just literally, that's why I kept following him around. I needed the police to do their job. [30:55] You'll find out who this motherfucker is. [30:58] Even though Ashley wasn't there for the shooting, she walked away believing the man she saw picking up shells fired at the white jeep. [31:07] So Ashley shoots this video, parts of which certainly appear self-incriminating. About a week later, the video gets Ashley arrested. Her arrest is filmed, and it kind of goes viral online. What the fuck? She's just on a street corner, and all of a sudden, cops swarm her. [31:29] Yes, her name is Ashley. You all are motherfucking pieces of shit. She's taken off in a police van. [31:37] And [31:37] It's for rendering criminal assistance, basically for helping cover up a possible crime. [31:43] You got arrested a few days later and you... [31:46] As I understand it, we're never charged with anything. What was that like? They were trying to put me as like I was helping him clean up the crime scene. When I was like, no, I'm recording him doing it because if anybody get in trouble, it's going to be him, not me. [31:59] She says, no, I wasn't encouraging him, right? I'm not helping him. [32:03] I don't agree with anything that he did. [32:07] At the time, you might be thankful because those kids were shooting at you. But afterwards, when you find out the truth, you're like, man, fuck that shit. I want to be like this.

[32:17] Were the police like, hey, you know who did it? Or what were they saying? No, the police wanted me to give up the names of the people who were at the crime scene. [32:26] Like all the protesters, they didn't even give a damn about the shooter. They asked me one question about the shooter, but they were more interested about the protesters. [32:35] Of course, there's stuff that's happening that happened there that I'm not going to divulge, but... [32:40] If I... [32:41] What's the number one rule of Fight Club? Don't talk about Fight Club. [32:45] Exactly. What's the second rule of Fight Club? [32:48] I'm not going to tell you. [32:51] You don't know. [32:53] What she's saying is we don't talk about [32:57] that stuff. You know, people who were there who witnessed this shooting, this killing, are not going to talk about it. And that is something certainly... [33:06] we've run into over a year of reporting is... [33:09] I feel quite confident there are people out there who know... [33:14] who did this shooting, but there are people who don't want to talk about it and won't talk about it. [33:20] It was someone walking around chopped with a gun, right? [33:24] Obviously. Everybody was walking around. So you know, I'm top flight security too. What's up, man? Come on now. Stop it. Cut the shit. [33:33] Literally cut the shit. [33:35] But what made him security besides the fact that he had a gun? That's why he was called security. And everybody at CHOP was security there. [33:43] We'd heard about shop security before. We'd seen people walking around the zone with body armor, sometimes with guns. But to understand who they were.

[33:56] and what their role was the night Antonio was killed... [34:00] "We've gotta go back to the beginning." [34:02] How did CHOP start? [34:04] Why did some protesters there decide to arm themselves? [34:08] And how did something so hopeful, a protest for Black lives, [34:13] end up turning into this [34:15] Circle of Silence. [34:18] surrounding the killing of a Black teenager. [34:22] Do Black Lives Matter to the SPD? We didn't kick them out. They abandoned this state. Pull back to your intersection. Pull back to me. [34:30] Always bristle at the fact that we gave up a precinct. It's way more nuanced than that. What were we so afraid of? [34:36] That's on the next episode of We Keep Us Safe. [34:49] Episode 2 is available now for NPR Plus subscribers. [34:53] This episode was reported and written by Will James and Sidney Brownstone. [34:58] David Gutman is also a reporter on the series. [35:02] It was edited by Luis Treyes and Laura Grinias. [35:06] with support from Katie Simon. [35:08] It was produced by Adelina Lansianese with support from Dan Germa. Research and fact-checking by Donya Suleiman and Miyoko Wolfe. [35:17] Robert Rodriguez mastered the episode. [35:20] The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, [35:25] Benjamin Rappaport,

[35:27] Liana Simstrom and Jenny Schmidt. [35:30] Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. [35:33] I'm Aisha Roscoe and Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. [35:38] Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. [35:48] This message comes from Bombas. Upgrade your summer staples with soft socks, cushy sandals, and breezy basics. One purchase means one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting. Go to bombas.com slash NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase. [36:08] Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, Malcolm Gladwell explores how organizations are using technology to solve complex challenges. I spoke with Sergi Ghosh, Heineken's chief AI officer. If you can connect all the different applications, all the platforms, remove fragmentation, scale very quick, that's what we call the best connected drawer. That's where IBM is really partnering with us. [36:38] podcasts. [36:39] This message comes from Mattress Firm. Sleeping hot can ruin your night. Mattress Firm's sleep experts can match you with a temper breeze designed to deliver cooling comfort for hot sleepers. Visit Mattress Firm and upgrade today. Restrictions apply. See store for details.