Trump's Dangerous War Games

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[01:41] Thank you. [02:02] Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, we'll talk about the White House's big post-State of the Union messaging [02:13] We've also got new details about the administration's strategy to use Americans as bait to sell their war with Iran. [02:20] We'll also talk about the huge news that the Justice Department made a [02:23] Few Epstein files disappear that included allegations of sexual abuse against... [02:29] Donald Trump. And we'll get into why Pete Hegseth is threatening an AI company unless they let the government use their products for unmanned weapons and mass surveillance. Then, as Democrats get some good midterm news, Tommy talks to Shelley Jackson, an organizer with Instituto, one of the organizations that Vote Save America is partnering with to recruit people just like you. [02:49] to run in down-ballot races in Arizona. [02:52] Not just like you, Dan, because you don't live in Arizona. Yeah, I would be a bad Arizona candidate. I would be a bad candidate generally, but particularly in a state in which I don't have eligibility. [02:59] It's not what Chris Coons thinks. He's worried. [03:02] Reminder before we start, if you want even more Pod Save America, more politics, more laughs with all your favorite crooked hosts, please consider becoming a Friend of the Pod subscriber. You'll get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends.

[03:17] I believe Lovett and Tommy helmed Only Friends this week. You'll also get other subscriber-only shows like Polar Coaster. [03:26] With this guy right here, Dan Pfeiffer. Yes. And access to all of our excellent sub-stack newsletters like Pod Save America open tabs and ad-free episodes of all your favorite Crooked Pods. And you also get to feel good about supporting an independent pro-democracy media outlet that isn't under control of the Ellisons. That's which they're few and far between these days. [03:48] But more on that later, yes. Yeah, right as we started recording, we found out the news that Netflix has given up because Paramount made a bigger offer. And so now Warner Brothers Discovery is going to be owned by Paramount. The Ellison's got another one. Which means Barry Weiss is in the Situation Room. [04:07] But it also means that you should subscribe. [04:10] To be a friend of the pod subscriber, cricket.com slash friends. [04:13] to our pro-democracy independent media company, not owned by David Ellison and not run by Barry Weiss and not under the thumb of Donald Trump. All right, let's get to the news. We're all still tired from Trump's nearly two-hour State of the Union address. And the president must be, too, since the White House sent out their newly minted fraud czar, J.D. Vance, to amplify the speech instead of Trump. [04:43] Medicaid funding for the people of Minnesota as collective punishment for some individuals supposedly committing fraud.

[04:52] Vance then traveled to Wisconsin on Thursday to keep pushing the fraud message. Well, charming voters with his signature charisma. Let's take a listen. When you go to the polls in November, I don't want you to just think about all the great things that we've accomplished, all the great things that we've talked about. I don't want you just to think about no taxes on tips and lower gas prices. I want you to think who is going to protect my money from fraudsters. [05:21] and take advantage of you. The job of your government is to shut the border and shut off the fraud. Kelly said that I'm the coolest vice president in American history. And I said, Kelly, that is a low standard. [05:35] That is a very low bar. But I do think that I clear that bar. But I think that... No, no, you did not. Not even close. [05:43] Did not clear the bar. [05:45] I have a lot to say. I don't have to say it today, but at some point about why J.D. Vance is an absolutely miserable presidential candidate and that the Democrats should spend the next two years making sure that everyone understands what a fucking gooper he is. [06:01] I mean, I don't think we have to work too hard at that. I don't think anyone needs a message memo or anything like that. I think we just need to make sure everyone sees him. Right, but we have... Or J.D. Vance. That's right. We have to show people J.D. Vance. We have to... Like, you don't even really have to meme-ify him because he is a walking meme. Like, the J.D. Vance meme is actually cooler than the J.D. Vance himself. But it's just...

[06:22] Like, he makes... [06:25] Ron DeSantis looks smooth. [06:31] Also, leading with his chin a bit there, you want to think about who let the fraudsters in. I don't know. There's a couple in the White House. One or two? [06:41] The president has actually been convicted of fraud. Many, many times, yes. He's been convicted of fraud. He has been accused of fraud. Yeah. [06:49] uh many fraudsters in the administration yeah he's part of some would say that jd vance himself is a fraud jd vance is also a fraud yeah um donald trump is actually um just stealing taxpayer money himself just suing his own government and then deciding in favor of himself uh both in the he's gonna try this with the irs he's trying this with the doj so he's stealing some money he's pardoning some fraudsters lots of people who built a lot of americans out of a lot of money now will not have [07:19] it. [07:20] fraudsters. [07:22] fraudsters. It does seem like they are gearing up to make this whole election about fraud. What do you make of that? What do you make of that? Are we just, are we taking this too lightly? [07:32] I don't really know, John. I would say in preparation for this podcast, I was going to take deadly seriously. I went back and read the State of the Union because I couldn't watch it again. Ooh. [07:41] It is less coherent in written form. [07:44] By far. [07:45] And the fraud section is particularly incoherent. It starts with Somalia. [07:51] goes to Minnesota, quick pivot to a tragic story about a car accident, then a new policy proposal on commercial licenses for undocumented people. And that's the whole thing. That's the narrative. That's the message. Well, it does show that they're really trying hard to combine the anti-immigrant agenda with, or conflate, not combine, with fraud, right? And so they know that people don't like their tax dollars being wasted,

[08:21] deserve them and who deserves them less? [08:24] than murderous immigrants who are here illegally. [08:29] Yeah, I mean I guess I kind of sort of understand – [08:34] what might possibly resemble a strategy here, which is to... [08:38] basically take Ronald Reagan's welfare queen, [08:42] of the 80s and then marry it with immigration. But it's not to be done in a particularly coherent way. And it's not – most people don't really know what they're talking about. Those are things that are not necessarily connected to each other. It's more sort of like – and you can really see this when you read the speech. It is just a series of comments on viral stories in the right-wing media stitched into a speech – [09:07] It's masquerading as something of a message, and this is one of them, right? They're fascinated by it. Nick Shirley was at the State of the Union, I believe, the guy who originally had the reporting – and I'm doing air quotes for the audio listeners – about this. And so I don't – it – [09:22] This is, I get, they don't have a particularly strong hand to play. [09:25] I don't think this is better than the other things they're doing, but I think this is probably something that J.D. Vance wants. I think that's why Trump gave it to him. I think that's why he's here. [09:35] I don't think he – maybe he thinks it's good for the Republicans, but I think he thinks it's probably good for himself because the Minnesota fraud, immigrant fraud – [09:43] like bullshit narrative they spin is a thing that excites the right wing media people and the and like the far right podcasters and mega types and data advances trying to persuade to be on his side and present a race. So I think that's kind of how we got here.

[09:56] Yeah, because I was going to say, I think the fatal flaw in their plan is they're forgetting that they're the ones in power that control the White House and Congress. And so if there are people who are worried that their tax dollars are being wasted and that's why they can't afford anything, instead of just making speeches about it, ostensibly, they would have the power to make sure that people's tax dollars are actually being used properly and that people can afford things. [10:26] I mean, theoretically, I guess. [10:28] It's not Joe Biden in the White House anymore. They're running against him. It's that they are the ones who they've had a year now. Later, J.D. Vance said to the pool, like, I think he said something like, some of this stuff, some of these economic policies just takes a while to work through the system. I heard him say, somewhat was it... [10:45] Someone said the other day, some Republican, that once the plants are built and the people start working, then we'll see the golden age. Once the plants are built? What are they building? I don't know. J.D. Vance said to the Bulls, some of this is that the policies we've already put in place take a little bit of time to work their way through the system. Is the car in the ditch, John? Don't start with the car in the ditch. That was our midterm message in 2010. Did not work. We lost 63 seats. [11:12] Did not work. You know, I never liked a car in the ditch and I didn't know that Obama didn't know that I didn't like it. But then he wrote in his book that I looked at him like I hated it. And I was like, I guess I did not have a good poker face on that one.

[11:42] the Ditch was. [11:44] By the way, in case you guys missed this part back in 2010, the Republicans are the ones who drove the car into the ditch. And now, and we're trying to get the car out of the ditch. It's not out yet because our policies take time. [11:57] Right, but we want to put the car in drive to get out of the ditch, and the Republicans want to put it in R to go back into the ditch. That was where you lost me, because that was a Tom Daschle, Evan Bayh classic, too. The DNR. That's been said by one million Democratic politicians at Jefferson Jackson and Dinners for 50 years. Not our greatest moment. We should probably edit this part out of the podcast, honestly. No, no, I think we should keep it in. [12:27] like, you know, the arsonist talk, the arsonist complaining who burned down the house or something like some dumb shit like that. So anyway, bad cliches, bipartisan. Why do you think they're having Vance out there doing this instead of Trump? This is really a great question because normally the president goes out the day after the State of the Union does a bunch of events, you know, will often travel for the whole week of the State of the Union back in, you know, a different media age. They travel for two weeks. [12:54] It's just Donald Trump loves attention. I'm sort of mystified by this. He loves attention. You are guaranteed to get attention the day after the State of the Union. [13:03] My only guess is he's tired. [13:05] Tired and busy planning a war, maybe. We are undertaking at least one and maybe two wars in the coming days.

[13:13] Yeah, could be that. But I don't think that's it. Some of the bigger warmongers in the administration are happy to get J.D. Vance out of there because J.D. Vance... [13:22] in some instances, isn't as quick to go to war. You think they sent him to Milwaukee so that they could bomb around faster? [13:28] That's a good thing. Who knows? Crazier things have happened. No, no, I'm not saying you're wrong. But you know he's in a signal chat, so he could respond. That's true. That's true. Well, it's not like he's making the decision in those signal chats anyway. No, no, he is. He speaks until Stephen Miller tells him to stop speaking. [13:45] Yeah, I don't know. Maybe he's tired. Maybe he just doesn't give a shit. Or maybe that speech was so long, even Donald Trump is sick of hearing Donald Trump talk. [13:52] I mean, that would be something. That would be something. As for the State of the Union itself, we don't have final numbers yet, but it looks like ratings were down from last year, about 12%. Regardless, the White House and some Republicans are excitedly telling reporters the speech was a home run that will reverberate through November. Here's two representative headlines, one from Politico. The so-too moment that Republicans hope saves the midterms. [14:18] Wow. And this is one from the Washington Post. [14:22] they laid an immigration trap ahead of the midterms. These headlines are referring, of course, to this moment now captured in a Republican super PAC ad. If you agree with this statement, then stand up and show your support. The first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens.

[14:52] These people are crazy. [14:57] you got us and with the old republicans are for you democrats are for them they're reprising the 2024 message you know uh so we were i know i was a rather cavalier about this moment uh when we did our post state of the union response pod were we too cavalier is this the the magic bullet that's going to save the midterms for the republicans i'm actually more cavalier today than i was on [15:27] After having seen that ad... [15:30] It shows why the idea that this is some moment that is going to shape the midterms is interesting. [15:34] idiotic it is pure stenography from reporters talking to republican operatives it doesn't translate into a net that ad sucks it's not really clear what's happening no one knows the context for it and even if they did [15:49] It would not matter that much because this is not Donald Trump of 2024. This is Donald Trump of 2026 when his immigration approval rating is 12 to 15 points underwater. He is not. The efficacy of a message is intrinsically tied to the credibility of the messenger, and Trump and the Republicans no longer have credibility on immigration. Democrats don't either. [16:10] Like now we're almost basically tied between with Trump on who you trust in immigration. But that's a gigantic win for us compared to previous years. And so this is not going to – [16:20] matter in any way, shape, or form. I don't care. It is a dumb person's idea of a clever idea, and it is just like it's not –

[16:28] It's really not a thing. [16:29] Yeah, I was trying to think about it just to sort of... I really tried for your... I did too. Well, and a few people were like, oh, was it smart? Ask me, genuinely, like, was it smart that he did that? Or was it weird that the Democrats didn't stand up? And again, it's like you said, maybe it makes people, some people, I guess, think, well, what are Democrats up to? I don't know about that. It does not help Donald Trump at all. It does not, because that's not what people are angry about. [16:57] Ice... [16:58] Again, he did not say ICE once during the whole speech. It wasn't a stand up and show your support for ICE. That's for sure. I also think that most people see, I think you can see through the obvious setup here. I mean, even the, if you agree with this statement, stand up and show your support. Like, yeah, so, you know, Democratic president could have been like, if you agree with this statement, stand up and show your support. The first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens, not Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. [17:28] didn't stand. [17:31] That would have been a good idea. I'm standing. [17:35] You know Republicans wouldn't stand for it. They wouldn't be able to stand, right? No, I mean... [17:39] And then what would we be led to believe? That they want to protect pedophiles? Wait until you put it in a mediocre ad. [17:47] Of course the Democrats didn't stand. Of course they weren't going to stand for a bunch of shit. He tried to arrest several of them in the audience. What are we doing? This is not a normal State of the Union. You're not going to stand for this shit.

[17:59] Yeah, it's the whole thing. The conversation around it is stupid. It is. It really is Republicans desperately trying to spin something, spin a find a win in this really incoherent speech that was terrible politics in every other way, shape or form. And some credulous reporters kind of like giving them a place to air their last hopes and dreams for the midterms. Of course, the government's first priority is to protect American citizens. Obviously, it's the highest priority of the American government. [18:29] We know that this government hasn't even done that. Yeah. It killed two American citizens. Exactly. In the service of trying to go after undocumented people, it killed the sort of quasi the service of trying to do that. It shot and killed two Americans in the street and lied about it. [18:44] It is illegally detained. The government has illegally detained at least 170 American citizens. Those are just the ones we know about. [18:52] And that was as of October of 2025. And that was before Minnesota. It's probably a lot more now. [18:59] So they have locked up American citizens in jail illegally for weeks at a time in horrifying conditions, killed two American citizens. Yeah, I don't think their priority is protecting American citizens. I don't think people believe it either. [19:11] So here's another related headline that I want to ask you about, Dan, from the Daily Beast. [19:17] Stephen Miller melts down an eight-hour Twitter beef with Jon Favreau. [19:23] My question to you is, do you feel pride, shame, or shame? [19:28] Or pity. I want to talk to you about this.

[19:31] I want to talk about this. I think I don't want this to come across as an intervention because it's not. [19:37] Yet. I don't want it to come across as me being critical of you because I'm not. I'm genuinely inquisitive. [19:44] I just want to say that the photo of me in the piece, the caption is, Jon Favreau got embroiled in an eight-hour social media spat with Stephen Miller. Not a great look for the host of Offline. No. As I tried to tell you, you need to start telling people that Offline's title is ironic at this point. Always has been. Always has been. It didn't start that way. You were genuinely concerned about people being online, and the product of doing that podcast for years was being more online. [20:13] But here's the thing. [20:14] in the White House. [20:15] I once told Barack Obama that you had – [20:18] the most common sense of anyone on his team. And that if we brought an idea to you, because sometimes... [20:25] Like an idea would form in meetings and the end execution of that is always a speech. And then always. And then like me or Axelrod or David Plouffe would go to your office and we would say, John, here's the idea. And you would always be mad that someone that signed a speech, I'll talk to you about it, which was a very fair point on your part. But if you thought the idea was crazy, I would really question that. [20:47] I was like, oh, that's like a good check. And I generally think you have excellent judgment. So... [20:56] What is going on here? [20:58] I feel great about this one. Just in general. You wake up in the morning and you're on a mission for Twitter fights with certain people. And I know you are because you're tagging them.

[21:09] Like, you don't have to tag them. No. Okay. Sometimes I do. I do not tag him at all on this. You quote me in this case. [21:16] Yeah, I quote tweeted him. It was about the topic that we're discussing now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And specifically because he tweeted – and this was – he tweeted on the night of the State of the Union. An insane tweet. That the seated Democrats – and the operative line here is, it was a moment that chills to the bone, which will live for a thousand years. Yeah, I mean that's an insane – So that is – yes. So it's like, okay, if you're – so I – [21:42] as we all heard that night, thought that the whole thing is a little bit ridiculous. And so I quote tweeted that and said, I think it's genuinely funny how hard they're all trying to make this a thing. And like I just used Miller because he was the most ridiculous one. And then, you know, then he replied to me, [21:57] Wednesday in the afternoon and said, you know, Democrats leapt, clapped, hollered and cheered for raising taxes, but their legs, hands and voices froze in icy contempt as they glowered at the parents of slain children. So that's that's what he said back to me. Then it just, you know, like when he when he tweets back, what do you think? I'm just going to leave it there. Stephen. No, no. The most powerful government official, more powerful than any of the cabinet members. [22:26] tweets at me, what am I supposed to just sit there? And he's also the most repulsive. If he was out there running, if he was the face of the midterms, I think we would all be [22:37] quite happy. Is that your strategy to make him the fit, make him the fit of the midterm? Yes. To use your Twitter account to do it? Have I not said on this podcast that if Donald Trump loses the midterms, that it's going to be the fault of Stephen Miller, which was such a, which was such a great point that you then made it a message box. Yes, I credit you for it. You know, you did. I know you did. But so, yeah, that was, that is my strategy. And

[22:56] Look, I think when I told him I found him, he thought that I found the whole thing funny, and I told him I found him hilarious. And then he told me that I was a textbook sociopath, which is, you know, again, leading with the chin. And then he asked if I have any, if I grieve myself. [23:17] He asked if you grieve for the families. Oh, yeah. I grieve for your family. He said, John, one more time. Do you grieve for these families? [23:24] And I told him I certainly have sympathy for his. Yeah. I just – how did you feel at the – like, in general, at the end of these Twitter battles, do you feel – [23:33] fulfilled, happy. Do you feel like you accomplished a goal? Because I think you have a goal here. Yeah, my goal was to... Well, he has not responded because I asked him. I said, I grieve for anyone who's lost anyone. Of course I do because I'm not a fucking textbook sociopath. And... [23:52] Why hasn't the president called the families of Alex? It was a great tweet. We were in a meeting together. I was sitting in the meeting. [24:00] You were on your phone typing a tweet. I was on my phone looking at Twitter and I saw your tweet. Sorry, Prostate America production team. But let me ask this other question because many people have asked me this because people bring up your Twitter fights to me a lot. Sure, sure. [24:16] How does your wife feel about this? Not as great. Yeah, that was the question. That was the question. Because my wife is not married to you, but likes you a lot. She does not feel great about it either. No, Emily thought it was – I got home. I sent her the whole exchange ahead of time before I got in the car to go home. And then when I got home, she's like, first of all, a little nervous again. Another fight with Stephen Miller. I don't know if I like this that much. She's like, but I did laugh pretty hard at the –

[24:45] sympathy for his family okay okay there are some that i like whatever i forget what we were fighting over i fought with megan kelly about something a couple months ago several times you've called megan kelly and i left that one i'm just like what was the use of that because it's like who cares it's megan kelly so that kind of shit i'm like yeah any fight that i've ever gotten in with jd vance or steven miller feel great afterwards okay look if you were finding personal fulfillment here and you end this happy because like time is not a renewable other right-wing influencers you should you should [25:15] Not so much. Not great. [25:17] High-ranking White House officials. [25:19] As long as you feel fulfilled, then I am okay with this because everyone needs a hobby. [25:24] I wouldn't say it was as fulfilling as then going home and hanging out with my family. Of course not. Finally going to bed early for one night. Those things were much more fulfilling. Generally, you do these Twitter fights on work hours. You're not doing it from the zoo with your children. So I think that's a positive. If that starts, we'll have another on-camera intervention here. [25:48] Anyway, still waiting for Stephen's response. When is the president going to call? Because I thought he grieves for American citizens, and I thought that the government's first role is to protect American citizens, but apparently it is not. [26:09] Positive America is brought to you by Nutrafol. Real change doesn't come from some big flashy moment. It comes from your routines you commit to. It's the small things you do every day that quietly add up over time. That's the idea behind Nutrafol. It's built around a simple, consistent approach to hair health that works from within and delivers visible results over time, not overnight. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.

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[28:27] gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I'm just thinking like I have these shots that are not alcohol. Then I have a bag of white powder that's creatine. It looks like drugs. I have Adderall. I'm telling you, my bag looks like I'm a much more interesting person. Really, I'm just a late stage capitalist millennial. Johnny Montana. [28:57] He loves you, Addix. We do. We genuinely do. True. [29:00] If you're ready to try it, go to zbiotics.com slash crooked. [29:03] and you'll get 15% off your first order when you use Crooked at checkout. Plus, it's backed by a 100% money-back guarantee, so there's no risk. Subscriptions are also available for maximum consistency. Remember, head to zbiotics.com slash Crooked and use the code Crooked at checkout for 15% off. [29:18] all right let's turn to a lighter topic the peace president's next war topic than your twitter fights with a fucking loser [29:27] Yeah, what is that? It's war. It's war, Dan. Real estate bozos Steve Whitcoff and Jared Kushner met with Iranian officials in Geneva on Thursday to negotiate a new nuclear deal and possibly stave off military intervention. Spoiler alert, didn't go well. No agreement was reached after the first day of negotiations. This comes after Politico reported that the administration is toying with the idea of having Israel, not the U.S. military, launch the first strike against Iran. [29:57] Thank you. [29:57] Why? Here's what a source familiar with the discussions told Politico. Quote, there's thinking in and around the administration that the politics are a lot better if the Israelis go first and alone and the Iranians retaliate against us and give us more reason to take action.

[30:16] Thank you. [30:16] I don't know. What do you make of the White House wanting to use American lives as bait? [30:21] to sell the rest of the country [30:23] on a war with Iran. [30:25] It seems like it should be a gigantic scandal that they would like to do this. [30:29] Right. Seems like it should be a big deal. It's not. There's a lot happening. It's not even make the A block of this podcast. It literally came after an online feud you had. [30:40] About the State of the Union. It was an offshoot. Yeah, I understand. There's a reason it fell to where it did in the lineup. But it does speak to how impossible this war is to sell to the American people. [30:54] that they cannot do it in any sort of normal way. It's why they're not even trying to do it. So that they're so desperate for a rationale for a war that the neocons of which Trump is not one of them, apparently have wanted for decades and decades and decades. They're so desperate for that, for to create a pretext for this war that they are, that they are one of the ideas on the whiteboard is let's get, let's get it. Some Americans killed so that Americans will be mad and want to go to war with Iran. [31:24] Seems bad. [31:25] Let's let Israel go first. [31:30] So because, again, the Israeli government, very popular here, let the Israeli government go first and then Iran will retaliate and what, maybe hit an American military base, I guess. And and, you know, we're hoping that our defenses will hold and no one will get hurt. And but, you know, who knows, because maybe if an American service member is killed or wounded, then American people will be like, well, Iran attacked us and killed Americans.

[32:00] around and like honestly the worst part of it is I could see it working I don't think it would work [32:07] I really don't. I think that the Trump people think the American people are stupid, and they're not. If Israel attacks Iran and then Iran attacks an American base, I do not think the American people are then want to sign up for a protracted war in the Middle East. [32:23] I certainly hope not. I certainly hope not. I was I talked about this earlier, but I think I can't remember which podcast I said this on. But, you know, the polling was at like 20 percent of Americans support any kind of action against Iran. We talked about this in an actual private conversation that wasn't recorded. [32:40] There we go. It's warm and wild. But then... [32:44] The CBS poll that dropped the day of the State of the Union asked it with, would you support military action in Iran to prevent them from getting a nuclear weapon? And when you add a nuclear weapon, then it was 47 percent approve, 53 percent disapprove. So you can start you basically you can just start seeing their house of lies that they're building this this case on, you know, ballistic missiles that may reach the United States soon. [33:14] America is a retaliation for Israel. Oh, now what if there's a nuclear weapon and they're a week away? Like they're just, you know, they're it's all the greatest hits from Iraq without any of the effort, really. But, you know, everything's gotten dumber since then somehow. And the information environment's gotten a lot more awful. So. But the American people have gotten a lot more skeptical of foreign interventions. And that question is,

[33:39] in the CBS poll, I think in people's minds is a military strike, like midnight hammer or whatever we call it. The other thing, not, uh, [33:48] an actual protracted [33:50] conflict that could cost American lives, could lead to attacks on the homeland or on Americans abroad, could lead likely lead to a giant spike in. [34:01] oil prices, and just general chaos in the world. And just remember, this is a president at 38% approval who is underwater on every single issue, including national security and foreign policy. [34:16] who may launch the United States into a war he has not explained to a single person why it's happening. [34:21] And so I think – I just think there's – people do not want to go to war and they really don't want Donald Trump to take him to war. [34:26] Yeah, that's true. All right, I'm holding out hope. Holding out hope. Although, I mean, I guess hope for public opinion. I mean, by the time you're listening to this, it is quite possible that the strike happened because the gating issue was they were going to get through these talks on Thursday. We're recording this on Thursday. The talks are over. So at any point something could happen. I would not be surprised if it happened over the weekend or overnight. We don't know. [34:55] Yeah. So House Democrats are also planning to hold a war powers resolution vote next week that would force the president to seek congressional authorization before carrying out any military strikes in Iran. Democrats already have the support of Thomas Massey, who sponsored the bill with Ro Khanna. And on Thursday morning, Representative Warren Davidson, a Republican from Ohio, threatened to support the resolution if the White House didn't brief Congress on its justification for the war.

[35:25] already lost at least josh gottheimer and uh and and jared moskwitz i think yeah um on this one so you know i don't think we have the votes currently but i don't know what do you what do you think do you think democrats uh there's a chance that democrats can get enough votes to pass this thing i don't know i think it's hard for republicans to vote to [35:45] him in the president on a national security issue. So we'll see. I do. You guys got to rant about this on Tuesday. I would like a, I'd like to reclaim my time for a second. Please. Yes, go. What Jared Moskowitz and Josh Gottheimer are doing here is, [36:00] is disgusting. Even if you believe... [36:04] against all evidence that Iran is an imminent threat to the United States that demands military action, the idea that you would let this president, this corrupt tin-pot dictator surrounded by yahoos, including a military commanded by a Fox News host, [36:21] who's drunk, who's with a reported drinking problem, maybe wage war in Iran without going to Congress, that you would give up your, [36:30] responsibility, your power to try to, [36:33] Influence how that war would take place because you want to show yourself to be tough on Iran or friendly with Israel or whatever else is just – it is immoral. It's unpatriotic. It is truly, truly disgusting. Like we can disagree. [36:51] about the merits of military action in Iran. You cannot credibly argue that Donald Trump, without Congress on his own, should unilaterally

[37:00] launch a war with Iran. That is an insane position for a Democrat. Like, I think, I think striking Iran in a war is insane. Yes. But like, let's say that you just genuinely believe it's the right thing to do, right? Well, then like, what are you afraid of taking it to Congress where you work, where you have been elected to represent people and having the debate there and making a decision as a Congress as the constitution intended? Yeah. All that War Powers Resolution is doing is saying Donald Trump has to come to Congress [37:30] first. There is not... [37:32] There is not an imminent threat here. And if there was, then the president has the power to act. But there is not one. [37:39] We know this because Donald Trump told us quite recently that they obliterated the nuclear program. [37:43] in iran and you can i mean you know i yelled about this before but you can tell that it's bullshit from the line and gotheimer's statement that it's like you know this doing this would show show weakness oh what are we in fucking 2003 here yes i mean it's also just like fuck josh you were there like you were you were there we went through this he was on the carry campaign with me we went through john carrey voting for the fucking war in iraq the author everyone gave president bush [38:13] president we want to give him the authorization for war i mean they they [38:17] This isn't even that. This is like... [38:19] If you want to vote to authorize the war, I think that is an insane position, but that is a vote. That is you putting your name in and saying, I support this. I'm giving you my power from a co-equal branch to authorize this military conflict to try to block –

[38:37] The vote from ever happening to somehow burnish your national security bona fides is disgusting. [38:43] It's insane. I do not understand it. [38:47] Well, Dan, good news. Sometime in the near future, our government's wars of choice may not require humans to fight them. I talked about this on Offline last week, but the Department of Defense is threatening Anthropic because the AI company won't let the government use Claude, their AI model, for mass surveillance on Americans or for firing weapons without human involvement. [39:17] that no company that works with the Department of Defense could also work with Anthropic. The Pentagon typically reserves the supply chain risk penalty for companies that are based in countries that are U.S. adversaries, like China's Huawei. Even more alarming, Elon Musk's XAI signed a deal with the Department of Defense this week that agreed to the standard Anthropic rejected. So the government's murderous surveillance drones [39:44] may someday run on grok. [39:48] And Anthropik, in a statement, right, as we were starting to record, said that they, in good conscience, cannot agree to this, and so they're holding strong. Dan, is this what people voted for? [39:57] for murderous surveillance drones. [40:00] To be commanded by Pete Hickseth? [40:03] No, I don't think it's what people voted for. I mean, this should be honestly one of the biggest stories in the country because it tells us two things. One, it speaks to all of the massive ethical and policy dilemmas that come with the very rapid emergence of AI. It –

[40:19] also reveals that the Department of Defense [40:23] because I will call it that on the front of war under Donald Trump would like the power to do mass domestic surveillance. [40:30] Hmm. And then just on top of that, at the same time, this story is this comes out that what they want, they want it like the Department of Defense argues we want. [40:40] Anthropic to let us do everything we're legally allowed to do. There are only two rules from Anthropic here. No mass domestic surveillance and no autonomous weapons that don't involve humans actually be the ones who make decisions. [40:53] The latter is... [40:56] Technically legal, although quite irresponsible, and I'll get to why it's even more dangerous in a second. But mass domestic surveillance – [41:02] Not legal. [41:03] And like, why do they want that? Like, there should be some follow up questions on that. But well, I'm sure I'm sure it's only going to be mass domestic surveillance if they go to the FISA courts and they get the warrants like properly, because that's how they've been doing things in the Trump administration. And also that's also not mass. [41:22] Right. Those are individual things, although obviously the Bush administration did do it with metadata at a very high, high level, and that continued for many years after that. But the other thing is there's this study that came out the other day where they were having all of the AI models play war games against each other. And the big takeaway was AI models are very quick to use tackling nuclear weapons and war. [41:47] War games. Yeah. I mean, because they're not hindered by the moral qualms of it. And it is a way like it is the fastest way to domination. And this is like the big takeaway is that this is what they do. And now we want to give them the keys to the arsenal. Like it just, it is insane. Also just, just,

[42:07] on this. It's not just Pete Hexat is such a fucking moron in the meeting with, uh, [42:13] the CEO of Anthropic the other day, he threatened them with two things when they refused. One was what you mentioned, blacklist and the supply list. The other one is that they would use the Defense Production Act to seize control of Anthropic's AI model. Now, those things are in complete conflict with each other. [42:31] If you are subject to a Defense Production Author's Act acquisition, it's because what you have is so essential in national security, the government needs it right now. And the other one in the blacklisting is that you're so dangerous that no one who does business with you can be in contact with the government. [42:49] Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that... I don't know that consistency is what they're going for. No, no. But this is just a... Like, this is the future... [43:00] we are living in. And like, I don't think any of these AI companies are covered in glory. [43:07] You know, Anthropic to their, I would say limited to their credit in this instance, but Anthropic exists. And I just read an incredible book about this called Emperor of AI. Anthropics, which is about, [43:17] But Anthropics exists because the CEO and the heads of Anthropics and that team left OpenAI because they thought Sam Altman was abandoning the original mission of OpenAI, which was to guard against risk. Now, they have also commercialized on running a $380 billion company right now. But there are a lot of other people who are going to do – like Elon fucking Musk are going to do the things that Anthropics will not do. I know, and we were talking about this.

[43:44] Anthropics could be the best actors ever, right? [43:47] just in a pretend scenario, that they're only out there. They don't even care as much about making money, and they're only there for good. The people who gave them $3 billion probably hope they care about making money. But I'm saying, just for the sake of argument, the problem is we're in a very competitive environment, in a free market system, and there's going to be other companies, and whether they're U.S. companies or bad actors overseas in foreign companies, whatever they may be, someone's going to figure out a way to do this, [44:17] up of good people, you have to fucking regulate it, which this administration is not doing. Like there is, there is no scenario here where it is not absolutely necessary to regulate the. [44:28] artificial intelligence there's just no scenario and with statutory with statutes with legislation like yes the administration whose current philosophy is no regulations at all and they're trying to ban regulations at the state level but congress needs to get involved here and that is dangerous because most of them are still using their aol accounts but like it just you need like [44:50] The fact that AI cannot do mass surveillance and automated weapons should be in law. That's something that should be in law and written in a way that prevents it. So it's not up to the goodwill of CEOs of multi-billion dollar companies to hold the line against this. And the only sliver of good news here is that they can't automatically fire the weapons yet. They don't have that capability yet.

[45:20] don't have the mass surveillance capability yet either, but they're, you know, they're all [45:23] Pretty close. But they are using AI to go through intelligence and do decision-making matrices. [45:29] God knows when Elon Musk get the XAI on there, but I'm sure that could be greenlit by Donald Trump any day now. [45:37] Yeah, well, he's too busy making sure that AI can undress images of random people online. So that's what he's focused on. [45:54] Posse of America is brought to you by Stamps.com. It is staggering that this very day, many small business owners are still making post office runs or are stuck with expensive postage meter leases. It's 2026, not 1926. Mail and ship when you want, how you want with Stamps.com. Pre-social security era. Who are the poorest people in our country? The elderly at that time. Our stock market crashes are Bitcoin now. With Stamps.com, you can send from your computer or [46:24] on demand. You get up to 90% off carrier rates like FedEx, UPS, and USPS. Schedule carrier pickups right from your door and get carrier compliant labels every time. No errors, no rejected mail, no wasted trips. It's perfect for your business. Send certified mail, get document tracking and confirm delivery and analytics to make sure you know exactly what you sent and spent. For almost 30 years, millions of customers have relied on stamps.com to make mailing and shipping faster and so simple. [46:48] Look, if you're a small business owner, getting Stamps.com just makes sense. I cannot believe people are still wasting time going to the post office, dealing with shipping. It's a pain. Stamps.com is a great solution. It's simple. You'll save money. You'll save time. Everything about it will work for you. Right now, you can try Stamps.com risk-free for 60 days. Go to Stamps.com and use the code PSA to get 60 days risk-free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That's Stamps.com,

[47:20] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. The cards and flowers are gone, but the pressure to have your love life figured out will remain. Whether you're in partnership or navigating life on your own, or maybe you're in some sort of newfangled arrangement where there's multiple people and a lot of complicated feelings. Polycule. That you have to constantly explain why it's so good. It's normal to feel a bit of a post-holiday emotional hangover. Working with a therapist can help you cut through the societal expectations and find a path that feels authentic. [47:45] to you, like the expectations I just put on you, like the judge's robe I just put on to talk about your publicule. Therapy can help you identify what's weighing your relationships down and find ways to brighten them again. Also, by the way, it can just be a way where you can work through some stuff because things can be great, but then you notice that little edge that trickles in. And you're like, let's nip that in the bud. [48:07] BetterHelp's quality therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally, and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. [48:37] off at betterhelp.com slash PSA. That's betterhelp.com slash PSA. [48:44] All right, we should also talk about the latest developments in the Epstein scale. Man, what a pod this is.

[48:51] honestly now i'm sort of regretting spending seven eight minutes on your twitter habits apologies to the listeners which uh is in the news today because the house oversight committee took a field trip to chappaqua uh new york for a closed door deposition with hillary clinton bills is scheduled for friday hillary said she had no memory of meeting epstein no knowledge of his crimes and briefly paused the deposition at one point after lauren bobert snapped a pic [49:21] came out and told the press the same thing that she said in her statement, but that also towards the end of the deposition, they started asking her about UFOs and Pizzagate. So that's how the Republicans were using their time in Chappaqua. Stay tuned tomorrow for part two with Bill Clinton. But the much bigger Epstein news this week is that Trump's Justice Department appears to have removed Trump, [49:46] FBI notes. [49:48] From three interviews that agents conducted in 2019 with a woman who accused Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump of sexually abusing her in 1983 when she was just 13 years old. We know this because the DOJ did release the FBI's initial interview with the woman where she only accused Epstein of abusing her in that initial interview. [50:18] presentation about the Epstein files from last summer, allegations that were also referenced in an evidence list that prosecutors provided to Ghislaine Maxwell's attorneys, which was also released on the DOJ website. So the existence of those two documents reveals that there were these three interviews that the FBI conducted with the woman where she had made allegations against Donald Trump. But the notes for those three interviews have disappeared from the website.

[50:48] And then confirmed by NPR and other outlets. On Wednesday, the Justice Department said it would take another look to see if any documents were improperly tagged and will release anything they find that falls under the requirements of the law. On Thursday, Oversight Chairman James Comer said the committee would be looking into it as well. [51:06] What do you think, Dan? [51:07] It's pretty stunning. What are the odds... [51:10] That the documents we mislabeled would be the ones that. [51:15] included allegations about Donald Trump. Just like what are the odds? - What are the odds? What are the odds? But also what are the odds that they are still incompetent enough? [51:25] to leave a couple documents in there that reveal the existence of these allegations. We are dealing with criminals. We are not dealing with criminal geniuses. Yeah. This is the thing. [51:37] that people said about the F-C-E-N files, which is... [51:41] you know, it's very possible or real that, you know, [51:45] Pam Bonney, Kash Patel, some other person who works for Trump could go in there and take out the Trump stuff. And people kind of said that you that's crazy. That's conspiracy theory. It was like this is these guys lie and cheat in every way, shape or form. And they did it here. They're just really bad at it. But if they were slightly better, if they had like third grade competency and criminality, then like no one would ever know this happened. [52:07] Yeah. And it's the documents are currently not. We don't know where they are. And I think the oversight ranking member, Congressman Garcia, went to go find him. Hasn't hasn't seen them yet. Like, have they been destroyed? Like, these are fair questions to ask.

[52:21] Yeah, it also seems like this one is not going away because you assume that the victim is out there, the person who made the allegations. She also made allegations against Jeffrey Epstein. They're more substantiated than the allegations against Donald Trump. We should say, of course, they're unsubstantiated so far. But like, you may have to imagine she's out there. Her lawyers are out there. People who know her are out there. [52:51] last we've heard of this one. Like, this is just... [52:53] It speaks to the volume of insane news in – [52:58] Trump's presidency that we have talked about a war with Iran. We have talked about a – [53:05] The Fox News host defense secretary trying to use killer robots. [53:10] And now we are talking about a potential like the Department of Justice going illegally. This is illegal what they did if this was done intentionally illegal. It violates the law that was passed requiring disclosure of the records went into illegally illegally. [53:25] Hide, steal, steal. [53:28] or destroy records that implicate Donald Trump in a... [53:32] child sex trafficking ring. Like that is what it is. Like whether those allegations are real or not, we don't know. But the cover up, the attempt to protect him from those allegations is a massive, massive scandal. Also one that like this was known, the NPR story hit the day of the State of the Union because we first talked about this on Jimmy Killen Live. Yeah. Because there was a question about the Epstein files. And so we brought it up there, too. But like it's wild

[54:02] happens and we're just like, okay. That's so true of so many other things. There's just a different world with a different president, a different media environment where this is all we've talked about for a year and a half now, every single day. Yeah. I mean, it is wild that it's still in the news. I mean, it is a gigantic scandal, like you said, but it is one of the few stories that has sustained itself for all these months. Yeah. This all kicked off last summer, really. Yeah, for sure. So I know we've talked about Trump's plans to steal the midterms quite a bit recently, [54:32] front, we should also mention. The Washington Post reports that, quote, pro-Trump activists who say they are in coordination with the White House are circulating a 17-page draft executive order that claims China interfered in the 2020 election as a basis to declare a national emergency for the White House. [54:48] that would unlock extraordinary presidential power over voting. So that's fun. One lawyer who's pushing the EO told the Post it would empower Trump to ban mail ballots and voting machines, among other things. So they're going to use this fake finding that China interfered in 2020 to justify a national emergency, to justify taking the power to run elections away from the states, which is, of course, constitutionally mandated. [55:17] How real do you think this is? And... [55:19] What's your gut on how the court might respond? There are definitely... [55:25] outside the White House working on this. [55:28] There are definitely lunatics inside the White House who are helping them do this. Whether Trump signs it or not, or actually comes out, open question. I really struggle to see what the legal basis for any of this is. Right. As you mentioned, it's in the Constitution.

[55:43] They are, ironically enough, relying on the same statute that the tariffs were used for, the emergency power statute, which has no specific discussion of tariffs. [55:57] elections or any of these things. There is no statutory power the president has to [56:02] even in an emergency over elections, right? [56:05] And there is no evidence of foreign involvement. This is based entirely on an intelligence report that Beijing considered foreign. [56:15] but then decided not to [56:18] get involved in the 2020 election. [56:21] That's it. [56:22] Also, the remedy for Beijing considering but deciding not to get involved in the 2020 election is to ban the mail ballots and voting machines. In the 2026 election. There is some weird thing about how they were like – one of the conspiracy theories is they're going to make driver's licenses, fraudulent driver's licenses for people to vote by mail. But the point is it makes no sense. I can't imagine – [56:47] I don't put a ton of faith in the Supreme Court, but this seems quite – if you thought their interpretation of the law on the terrace was absurd, this is like – [56:59] 10,000 times more absurd than that. I agree with you. And if I were a conspiracy minded myself, I might say that one of the reasons that Trump flew off the fucking handle with that Supreme Court decision, why he was so angry at the Supreme Court and said such crazy shit like they've betrayed their families and they're disloyal other shit is because...

[57:23] Someone told him that that 6-3 majority in that case is probably what you'd get. [57:31] in a case where he tried to declare a national emergency and take over the elections. [57:35] Yeah, that seems possible. [57:37] If I was conspiracy minded, I would also think about that. But you're right that like, even if that even if that wasn't going through Trump's mind, I do think that the reasoning, if you look at that case, the reasoning that Roberts and Barrett and the liberals signed on to and Gorsuch and the liberals all signed on to is like it is it's like you can do major questions doctrine. You can use president like there's there's you can't. [58:04] You can't usurp Congress's power that is prescribed explicitly in the Constitution with a fucking executive order just because you say there's a national emergency. It's literally the exact same thing, right? It's the same reason. Power to administer elections. In this case, states, you're taking power from the states, which is explicitly designated in the Constitution. You can't do that. You can do it with the law. You can't do it with an executive order just like the tariffs. I think this is – [58:30] Like what is more disturbing about this is the mentality and the lengths to which this administration is willing to consider to try to avoid the what they believe to be a significant ass whipping coming in November. Yeah, you can see why it's yeah, you can see why rigging the election feels important to them, because here's Mike Johnson on Tuesday threatening us with a good time. If we lost the midterms, heaven forbid, if we lost the majority in the House, it would be the end of the Trump presidency in a real effect.

[58:59] Hell yeah, it would be. [59:01] If that is not in a DCCC fundraising video right now. [59:06] I mean and not do not text me with it. Do not text me. I do. If I get a fucking text, I'm going to say stop. So do not text me with a D triple C. But if you put it in a pre roll, that's pretty good. [59:17] How do fucking Republicans pitch every dumb reporter in D.C. that the moment of the Democrats sitting in the State of the Union, it's going to save the midterms. And then they got the ad out already and they got all the stories about the bullshit ad that's terrible anyway. And like Mike Johnson says that we can't we can't make something of that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. [59:39] Anyway, we also have a new Washington Post-ABC News Ipsos poll that found a 14-point enthusiasm gap working in Democrats' favor for the midterms. 79% of Democrats said they were certain they would vote in the midterms. Only 65% of Republicans said the same thing. [59:54] That said, the generic ballot in this one is only a two-point Democratic lead. Didn't love that part. But what do you think is going on here? Or do I have to wait until the next episode of Polar Coaster? Because I am a subscriber, which you can be too, at Crooked.com slash friends. Actually, John, I hate to do this to you, but you have to wait until the next... [1:00:11] message box to come out, which you can be a subscriber to at kirkut.com slash yes, we did. I think I'm not worried about the generic ballot in here. The generic ballot average is about six or seven, depending on which site you look at. But the post reveals what is obvious in the electoral data we've seen so far this year. Democrats are incredibly fired up. Republicans are depressed and swing voters are looking for Democrats. That is what we saw in that special

[1:00:41] the Ipsos poll. Just look at what's happening in Texas right now in the early vote. So there's a day or two left in early voting. As of Wednesday night, [1:00:50] The [1:00:51] In the Democratic primary, they have early votes cast are 163% of what they were in the 2022 election. [1:00:59] election, Democratic primary. Now, you may say to yourself, I don't remember a particularly competitive Democratic election in 2022 in Texas. I don't either. But here's what I will tell you. There is an incredibly contested Republican primary happening right now, which has had tens of millions of dollars spent in the air. I think there's been there might have been 100 million dollars spent in that race already. [1:01:17] And Democrats have cast in Texas, a state Donald Trump won by almost 14 points. Democrats have cast one hundred and forty thousand more early votes than Republicans as of Wednesday. [1:01:27] Do you think some of that is just behavior like Democrats vote early and Republicans don't though? [1:01:33] Um, maybe, but, but the Republicans are also trailing their pace from, so you can look at the comparison of 2022 is instructive, right? Right. So you can compare now to 2022, Democrats are doing well, the Republicans are not, or you can compare Democrats, Republicans right now, and Democrats are doing better, but even Democrats do better as a state with more Republicans. [1:01:51] So they should be doing better, and they are not. So Democrats are fired up. Like we know Republicans are more same-day voters, all of that, but there is plenty of evidence that Democrats are very, very fired up, and that is good news. [1:02:02] Too big to rig. That's what we got to do. Just got to have more people voting. So it's too hard to declare a national emergency and take the voting machines. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

[1:02:15] Oh, that's right. I forgot you said this. We need the voting machines to be so full of ballots that little Cash Patel can't carry them out of the Fulton County. Yeah, we did say that. Again, I forget what I say off mic and on. [1:02:32] need to field a Democrat in every down ballot race, especially in states like Arizona. [1:02:36] where we need to build more electoral power. [1:02:39] We'll be right back. [1:02:48] Pod Save America is brought to you by Uplift Desk. John, Tommy, and I have Uplift Desks in our office, and we genuinely love them. We are moving up and down all day. Sometimes we're sitting, sometimes we're standing. You've got to change your vibe. It's nice, because otherwise you slouch all day long and you feel terrible. [1:03:05] And now there's the all-new Uplift V3 standing desk, which transforms your desk into a productivity engine. The V3 combines the best of Uplift's V2 and V2 commercial into one smarter, stronger frame. This thing, it'll send you up into the ceiling panels if you're not careful. That's how quickly we're rising these desks these days. I don't know what they've done between V2 and V3. I guess I have V2. I think it's great. Yeah, it's like an AI model. It's just exploding in progress. Yeah, a lot of extra tokens now. Redesigned feet and steel reinforcements make this the most stable standing desk yet. [1:03:35] assemble in minutes no stress no mess the new flex mount cable manager comes in every desk to keep cords hidden and tidy upgrade everything speed stability ergonomics and design ultimate customization options with the most extensive range of desktop styles and accessories in the industry we genuinely do have them and love them they've totally made working at our desk better like all the time i would say that we all sit after lunch you gotta be low after lunch but then you get back up you gotta move you gotta change your vibe you sound like joe viben there

[1:04:05] with a standing desk, I don't think. Transform your workspace and unlock your full potential with the new Uplift V3 standing desk. Go to upliftdesk.com slash PSA and use our code PSA to get four free accessories, free same-day shipping, free returns, and an industry-leading 15-year warranty that covers your entire desk, plus an extra discount off your entire order. That's U-P-L-I-F-T-D-E-S-K.com slash PSA. For this exclusive offer, it's only available through our link, upliftdesk.com slash PSA. [1:04:34] 90% of the launches in the world come from the Space Coast right here. And it's really easy just to go down to the beach on Cocoa Beach or nearby and watch a rocket launch. I mean, almost guaranteed if you are here, you're going to get to see one. So we're excited for people who don't live here because it's pretty life-changing to see a rocket liftoff. The Stoke level is 100. I'm Christina Korp and I am known as the Astronaut Wrangler. Cocoa Beach, the birthplace of Stoke. Feel it for yourself at legendarycocoabeach.com. [1:05:04] Thank you. [1:05:07] My guest today is doing absolutely essential work in Arizona, recruiting and supporting candidates for office. Shelly Jackson, welcome to Pottaic America. [1:05:15] Thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful to be here. [1:05:18] We are grateful to you for the work you're doing. So you have a lot to talk about. You ran for school board and you flipped a seat when you were 24. We need more people like you. Now you run an organization called Instituto, which is doing recruiting, training, ongoing support for people who want to run for office or who organize around really important issues.

[1:05:48] Texas. Now, the filing deadlines in Texas and North Carolina have already passed, but in Arizona, I believe you have until March 23rd if you want to run for office. So go to votesaveamerica.com slash run if you want to learn more. Also, I think the filing deadline has not yet passed in about half of the country. So if you're listening and you are inspired to take the plunge, check out your deadline in your state. But let's start with Instituto. What are the gaps that you guys are [1:06:18] Once they win. [1:06:19] Yeah, I love this question. And yes, also shout out to the Vote Save America team and the Pipeline Fund. It's been so incredible to have this partnership. Here in Arizona, a lot of the times when candidates are running for office and probably all across the country as well, they're doing it with very little support. They're going in, maybe excited to help their community, but don't know where to start and end up missing a lot of gaps along the way. [1:06:49] pieces around funding, right? Having a support system that are also super essential to making sure a candidate can win and that they also have the morale they need to move things along the way. And so at Institute, though, we do a couple of things. We help identify candidates. So we are always on the search and we're always looking to find new people who want to get involved. And sometimes just tapping people on the shoulder is needed. A lot of times people don't even see

[1:07:19] not have on my bingo card that I was going to run for office. Someone asked me and then they asked me again and again. And so being able to have someone actually tap you on the shoulder is super essential. So that's one of the things that we do is we just straight up ask people. And then after that, we are supporting them with training, making sure they have the skills needed to run, making sure that we're also talking through with them. How are you thinking about your finances? If you're running for school board, you don't get paid. If you're running for the state legislator, I believe [1:07:47] The most they make is about 27,000. And that's a really hard job, right? So we have the conversations and we provide the resources for people to make informed decisions. And then once they get into office, we also have a co-governance fellowship. And this really helps support the now elected thinking through what does it look like to govern? What does it look like to do this job well? And what does it look like to do it with community to make sure that we're also not moving on our own and being harmful once we get into office? [1:08:17] That's great. I mean, so Turning Point USA is also based in Arizona. Folks probably heard of it. It's the organization started by Charlie Kirk. It funds a ton of grassroots youth activism to bring people into the MAGA movement. Now, obviously, I disagree politically with them on like everything, but I am very impressed by the work they have done. What kind of support do you think Turning Point is providing on the Republican side that Democrats are missing on the progressive side? [1:08:45] Oh [1:08:47] I love this question. Also cringing at the fact that they started in Arizona. Don't love that. But you know what? One thing I think that they are doing that we can think about more on our side is creating low barriers of entry. I think a lot of the times on our side, we start to do purity tests. We start to create this really high bars just for people to get involved. And sometimes we just end up pushing people away instead of inviting them in.

[1:09:17] turning point. They are on campuses. They are all over and they're welcoming any and everyone. And then once they get into the door, I think they push them. I think they share this ideology and this narrative that they have. And the more people are there, the more they start to adopt it. But I think sometimes on our side, we forget about that or we expect people to be at a certain place right away. And that's just not where most people are. That is such a good point about the barrier to [1:09:47] to entry for a turning point event is like going to a big event that feels like a party where everyone is welcome and they bring you in this giant funnel. And then eventually they can try to get you to run for office or be an activist or whatever it might be. Now, Arizona is a really important swing state in like every single election. One would like to think that, you know, National Democrats, the National Democratic Party, maybe big donors are just chucking resources at you guys. Is that happening? Do you hear from like the DNC, Super PACs, anybody? [1:10:17] really interesting in Arizona when it comes to the funds, because this will be the first year, I think, in about 14 years that we haven't had, we won't have a Senate race, right? So for the last few cycles, we've had a really big top of the ticket race that has been helpful to garnering support. We know that when we get big funds like that, it really helps [1:10:38] Other candidates that are down ballot as well. But this year we don't have a Senate race or anything like that. So I think we are already starting to see some differences. The money is not flowing in the way that it has in the past. I'm still trying to hold out hope that it is coming and it is on its way because, as you know, we have other races that are still important here in our state.

[1:10:57] Yeah, absolutely. So back to you, you ran when you were 24, you ran for school board, you flipped a seat. What you said, like, you know, you had to be asked and asked and asked again, I mean, what made you want to run for office? And what did you learn from that experience that might inspire or just, you know, like inform listeners who are thinking about doing the same thing? [1:11:15] Yeah. So you know what? I'm someone who never thought I was going to be in politics and social justice. So I definitely never thought I was going to run for office. So we can just start there. I never saw myself like that. I grew up thinking I was going to be a nurse because my grandma was a nurse. I wanted to be just like her. And I got to my senior year of high school and realized that I like taking care of her. I don't think I would actually like taking care of other people. [1:11:45] dance teacher who was like, look, Shelly, you've danced your entire life. [1:11:48] Why don't you become a dance teacher? And I said... [1:11:51] Sounds like a plan. I went to school for dance and dance education. And during that time, I actually had the opportunity to teach dance all over Arizona, working with an organization. And that was really eye opening for me and was my entry point to really critically thinking about. [1:12:09] systems and resources. And I started to wonder why when I'm in Scottsdale or when I'm in Chandler, like these students get X, Y, and Z. But when I'm on the South side in the neighborhood I grew up in, we actually don't have as much as many accesses to afterschool programs or the arts or these other essential pieces that I was seeing in other places. And so that had already kind of like opened up my mind. And that's how I started to get into organizing. I was really lucky that a

[1:12:39] have posted on Facebook one day, I'm looking for young black organizers to get involved. And I was like, I don't know what that means. But I'm there. And I started organizing on all the things. And so to fast forward, 2020 comes around. [1:12:54] It's the pandemic. Candidates all over are struggling to get on the ballot. Right. Because in order to get on the ballot, you have to get signatures. A lot of the time people get signatures by standing outside of a grocery store. Right. Asking, can you sign this thing or knocking on someone's door? But people didn't have the ability to do that because everyone was staying inside. [1:13:24] just wild. So in that situation, people can now start to run as a write-in. And I didn't think anything of it. I was watching what was happening and I was hoping for the best. But what ended up happening was MAGA folks in our neighborhood said, hey, this is an easy way for us to be on this district. So they started running as write-in candidates. And at the time, they were the only ones. So we were going to end up in a place where we now had a majority MAGA district. [1:13:54] And I was ignoring their calls because I had a feeling I had a feeling what they were going to ask. And then I started to answer and folks kept saying, hey, we're in this moment. We need you. You're from here. You taught in the district. Right. You have an education background. And I said no. And I said no for a couple of weeks. And it really got to a point where I was like, am I going to be OK?

[1:14:16] "Well, whatever happens if I'm not there?" [1:14:18] Am I going to be OK with students missing out on more resources? Am I going to be OK with this ideology being pushed that's also going to show our black and brown students that they don't belong in their own neighborhoods? And then I said, no, I'm not OK with that. And I finally ended up saying yes. So I'm really grateful that people kept pushing me and we were able to do really great things. Two years and I became the board president. So I spent my last two years actually leading the district and working on the ground with really great people. [1:14:48] It was hard to see myself in that position because I had never thought of it for myself. To your point, I was also 24 years old and I did hear a lot of rhetoric around my [1:14:58] Well, young people can't do this. Right. Or we need more qualified people. But I'm lucky that I had finally got to a place of no, me being young is exactly why I am qualified. Right. These are actually things that make me ready. They're not barriers to doing the work. [1:15:15] That's an amazing story. I mean, yeah, I'm sure you've noticed that a lot of the elected Democrats are super old. They a lot of them pay lip service to the idea of this next generation of leaders, but it's not clear they're doing much about it. What kind of things do you think are keeping young people from running? And like, what do they need to get over those hurdles and take the plunge like you did? Yeah. You know what? I think that a lot of it is apathy. I think if you're a young person and you're looking at what's happening, you're kind of like, well, this is just how things are.

[1:15:45] long time. And so that may be a reason why folks don't even want to get involved, let alone running for office. I think... [1:15:53] something that young folks should remember is that if we see things as they are as not working, [1:16:00] It's because we're not at the table because the people who have been in office are the ones continuing to make the rules. And the conditions show that it's not changing material conditions for everyday people. The conditions show that cost of living continues to rise and that they need fresh voices, fresh people who are ready to provide a different perspective and like really shake things up. What I hope is that young people start to see their apathy as like a superpower. [1:16:30] we do nothing, right? I don't think apathy means that we kind of just sit and watch things go. I [1:16:36] actually a nudge towards like, I'm not feeling it. And in order to be able to have a different outcome, I actually have to do something and investigate what is that something? Is it running for office? Is it organizing? You know, is it joining a protest? [1:16:52] That's great. I love it. Last question for you. So, you know, you've done all this work sort of finding these candidates, recruiting them, training them, helping them succeed when they get there. Are there any like stories or people you've met that really inspired you or that, you know, I don't know, maybe open your eyes that like. [1:17:06] about how different someone could be for running or like how just like the range of places people are coming from to run for office because of your organization. Yeah, so many amazing people that are coming up. One person that I want to highlight that's not from this season, if you will, but has just won a city council seat. Her name is Ana Hernandez. I love it. This season. This season on running for office. Exactly. Exactly. I think a lot about Ana Hernandez.

[1:17:36] see in a... [1:17:38] This is a very Democratic district, but she had an incumbent who had been there for a really long time. But he was very status quo. He wasn't getting things done. He wasn't holding the line on different issues. And she came in and everyone said that she had no chance of winning. And she won and she won by a lot. And while she was there, she led the charge against the abortion fight that we were having in the state of Arizona and was able to make a ton of different change. And now she's at the city council fighting and she is someone who is loud. [1:18:08] super authentic. She brings her family everywhere. And I think it is just so beautiful to see. And I think so against status quo. So I mentioned her a lot, but someone I actually want to highlight who's from the VSA program. She came through the pipeline. She heard you all on the podcast and she said, Oh, I'm interested. Her name is Caitlin and she is from New York now living in Arizona and has an education background and was watching what we're seeing across the country on [1:18:38] advocacy heard the podcast and was like, well, maybe I can do something about it. She reached out to our team. We had several conversations with her and she shared with us more about the district she was living in. She's in a school district where they have appointed a lot of seats. So that's a fun fact, right? People don't know that when there's not a seat, like, let's say a seat goes uncontested or someone steps down from the seat, then someone else

[1:19:08] have a county superintendent. Her name is Shelly Boggs. [1:19:12] I don't claim her. A different Shelly. It's spelled with a Y. Okay. Mine's a spell with an E-Y. But Shelly Boggs has been appointing MAGA folks to school boards all across the state. And so now she's in a district that's actually very blue, but a good chunk of her school board members representing her are MAGA red. And so once she heard the podcast and talked to us, she actually decided, yeah, I can do this and I can change my district and I can put students first. And now [1:19:42] God, I love that story. That is such a great story. And your point about them appointing people to these seats if no one runs is why we have to run people everywhere in every election all the time, especially this year when, fingers crossed, things might go well. So again, if you're in Arizona, you still have until March 23rd. If you want to register, go to votesaveamerica.com slash run. Shelly, where can people learn more about Instituto or Chippin to help you guys out? [1:20:12] donate and learn more about our trainings. Everything is on that website. And from there, let's talk. Let's figure out how we can get you running and support you along the way. [1:20:21] Well, Shelly, thank you for the work you're doing. Thanks for doing the show. And I hope to talk to you again soon. [1:20:24] Thank you so much. Appreciate it. [1:20:32] That's our show for today. Thanks to Shelly Jackson for coming on. If you're interested in running in Arizona, head to votesaveamerica.com slash run.

[1:20:39] to get more info. I'll be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with Maine Senate candidate Graham Plattner. Bye, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. [1:21:04] Our producer is Saul Rubin. [1:21:05] Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor. [1:21:11] Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. [1:21:21] Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. [1:21:25] Thanks to our digital team. [1:21:26] Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaveave, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [1:21:40] . [1:21:45] Thank you. [1:21:46] 90% of the launches in the world come from the Space Coast right here. And it's really easy just to go down to the beach on Cocoa Beach or nearby and watch a rocket launch. I mean, almost guaranteed if you are here, you're going to get to see one. So we're excited for people who don't live here because it's pretty life-changing to see a rocket liftoff. The Stoke level is 100. I'm Christina Korp and I am known as the Astronaut Wrangler. Cocoa Beach, the birthplace of Stoke. Feel it for yourself at legendarycocoabeach.com.

[1:22:15] Thank you.