One Reporter’s Life-Altering Psychedelic Trip

[00:00] Innovation loves speed. [00:01] Risk doesn't. [00:03] For most organizations, that tension never goes away. [00:06] Every time a new AI capability appears, the pressure to move fast collides with the responsibility to move safely. [00:13] One Trust is built for this moment. [00:16] Their AI-ready governance platform provides context to understand your data, controls to stay ahead of risk, and confidence to act boldly. [00:24] Governing well and moving fast aren't trade-offs. [00:28] They're complimentary when done right. [00:30] That is governance that helps you go. Visit onetrust.com backslash governance. [00:36] From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kittroweff. [00:39] This is The Daily on Sunday. Well, I'm glad I was cogent. I actually just, I had to share this with you guys. Last fall, as I was finishing up an interview with my colleague, the politics reporter Robert Draper, he very casually mentioned... I spent Thanksgiving in Tijuana, Mexico, undergoing ibogaine psychedelic therapy. ...that he'd just returned from a marathon hallucinogenic drug trip. How long did it last? Ten hours. [01:09] You go in and you use that to stave off, you know, any kind of nausea. Now, I should just say, Robert isn't exactly the kind of guy I'd have expected to tell me something like this. He's a seemingly staid veteran journalist who covers the American right and the MAGA movement. But he told me this drug was something he felt he had to try. Yeah, it was really, really interesting. I mean, the whole, I have to find a way to write about it at some point.

[01:39] Ibogaine, and it's illegal in the United States. But early research suggests it could be a game-changing treatment for a range of conditions, things like PTSD, addiction, even cognitive decline. So today, Robert Draper and I talk at length about his experience on Ibogaine. [02:01] It's Sunday, April 12th. [02:08] Robert. [02:09] Welcome to the Sunday Daily. It's great to have you here. It's great to be here. Thanks, Natalie. [02:13] Ciao! [02:14] I just want to start by saying that I have so many questions for you about how you wound up having this experience. I am very excited to talk with you about it. And I want to recognize that that might not totally be the case for you. This might be something slightly uncomfortable for someone who has made a singular career for himself as a journalist in profiling others. [02:44] is not something that [02:46] you may be used to or find the most fun in the world. Is that fair to say? That's more than fair to say, yes. I mean, I think that my interest in learning about others is in inverse proportion to the interest I have in disclosing things about myself. [03:03] Okay, well, we're going to proceed with caution in that case. [03:07] I want to just start with how you first came to know about Ibogaine. Just talk about how this got onto your radar screen in the first place. Yeah, I first heard of Ibogaine from a kind of unlikely source, a former United States Senator Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, who had become aware of Ibogaine.

[03:28] its usage in treating military veterans for PTSD and traumatic brain injury. Sinema decided to try it herself. She said, and these are her words, that it was the opposite of a pleasant experience, but it was a really... [03:44] transformative one for her. She'd been working to produce legislation in the state of Arizona to fund clinical research for Ibogaine. And someone who'd done that right before her was, I think, an even more unlikely political advocate, and that's the arch-conservative former Secretary of Energy, former presidential candidate, and former governor of Texas, Rick Perry. He was also into Ibogaine. Yes, he was into it. In fact, he became interested for the same reason Sinema did, [04:14] that in his capacity as governor, he'd met a lot of combat-afflicted veterans who were sort of at the end of their rope, and he saw what Ibogaine had done for them. And so he decided to try it himself. And, you know, again, Perry, like Sinema, emphasized to me that this was nobody's idea of a party drug. It was a very, very powerful substance. [04:36] And I want to get into the power of that substance. Tell me about Ibogaine. What is it and how does it work? [04:44] Sure. It's a psychedelic, a drug that is derived from a natural source, actually from the bark of a West African shrub known as Tabernanth iboga, found principally in the country of Gabon and used in initiation ceremonies in that and other African countries. But it had been...

[05:06] circulating in Europe and the United States, really going back to the 1940s, but particularly so roughly around 1970 when a heroin addict named Howard Lotsoff, kind of chasing the next high, had an opportunity to try Ibogaine and found that it cured him of his addiction to heroin. He began then to advocate for the drug, to help underwrite studies into the drug. And so it has [05:36] but in the underground because it's a Schedule I drug, meaning that— It's illegal. That's right. The Controlled Substances Act stipulated that it, like LSD, has no accepted medical usage. And so you can't get it legally in the United States. You have to go elsewhere to try it. [05:54] And what do we know, Robert, about the way in which it actually functions, in which it has the impacts that Perry and Sinema were telling you about? Yes. And I want to emphasize, Nellie, that there have been studies on this, but a lot more studying needs to be done. Stanford, in particular, in January of 2024, produced this clinical research of 30 combat veterans. And it seemed to activate... [06:19] in them a type of brainwave known as theta rhythms, which in turn promote neuroplasticity. There's also research indicating that ibogaine increases the signaling of particular molecules within the brain that have been linked to drug addiction as well as to depression. So all of these on top of the fact that the study seemed to indicate that ibogaine treatment can

[06:45] reduce brain aging by 1.3 years per treatment. So there's a lot of potential for ibogaine studies indicating that because it enhances neuroplasticity, that it could prove to be a cure for neurodegenerative diseases like dementia, ALS, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's. But again, I want to stress that there has been no conclusive reporting on this. No, totally fair caveats. It sounds like a lot of these potential benefits center on the idea [07:15] of neuroplasticity. Can you quickly say what that is and how this drug potentially impacts it? Yeah, I mean, neuroplasticity basically means, I mean, to put it in sort of the rawest, crassest way, it's sort of the opening and the flexibility making of the human brain. And where a brain may have shut down owing to a particular trauma, it will [07:38] in effect, lubricate or open the molecules of a brain and allow it to become more receptive. And that has kind of been the elixir enhancing neuroplasticity that scientists have chased for a while in grappling with these neurodegenerative disorders like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, and for that matter, traumatic brain injury. Fascinating. It's like the drug, by affecting neuroplasticity, [08:08] allows you to work inside them. And Robert, is the current interest in Ibogaine part of the gradual uptake that we've seen of psychedelics to treat mental illness? For example, I know about ketamine being used in therapeutic settings. I know people turn to ayahuasca, another plant from South America that is used ritualistically for similar reasons to kind of break out of

[08:38] Yes, and I'd add to that microdosing of psilocybin and MDMA. And I think that what we're talking about here are not only an exploration of psychedelic for therapeutic purposes, but an implicit skepticism, if not outright rejection, of a lot of traditional medications and a viewpoint that had been held for decades that whatever ails you, go to the pharmacist and [09:08] the last decade, indicating real therapeutic usage of these psychedelics, which, of course, [09:15] It definitely then flies in the face of the notion that a drug like these should be Schedule 1, which is kind of the conundrum that the Trump administration is supposedly grappling with. [09:26] From what I understand, though, this drug, Ibogaine, is much more intense than some of these other ones. I want you to just sketch out what's different about this drug from some of the others that we might be hearing of. Yeah, I mean, to put it candidly, I mean, this is, it's not a party drug. You'd never go to the Burning Man Festival, you know, and do it and dance around a fire. [09:56] risk of cardiac arrest because it can cause arrhythmia, which is an irregular heartbeat. It can elongate the spacing between heartbeats. And so, if you already have a heart condition, you absolutely should not be taking it. When you do take it, you should have heart monitors hooked up to you. You should have professionals nearby. So, there is nothing about this that says, you know, woo-woo, we're having fun on psychedelics. And in that sense, even before we get to what

[10:26] to you when you're on ibogaine, it sets itself apart from drugs like LSD or MDMA or psilocybin mushrooms. [10:33] Okay, so given that, given the intensity of the experience that we're talking about here, what made you want to try it for yourself? What was it that made you say, like, this could be of use for me? [10:47] Sure. I mean, I admit this is not easy for me to talk about, but I had a very tormented relationship with a very tormented older sibling. Eli was his name, and when he was 23, he was killed in a vehicular accident. I was 22. We were 18 months apart. Wow. But he was kind of a human wrecking ball. How so? Well, I mean, my younger brother, who's a psychologist, believed that Eli was a sociopath. Oh, wow. He was brilliant in many ways, but unfocused. [11:16] He was this physically immense person, six foot five, and misanthropic, alcoholic, prone to violence, and generally a sullen person. And the household kind of trembled whenever he walked into it. And I was, as the middle child, my parents weren't, you know, they were just doing the best they could to manage, you know, a household. But I was often used as the intermediary, the placater. The buffer. Yes. It sounds like. [11:46] He would stay away from my younger brother, who he was terribly abusive towards. And he was abusive towards me, too. But, you know, his death and really even his life had left me with not only survivor's guilt, but just a kind of...

[12:00] In many ways, a low self-esteem, feelings of lingering joylessness. And I could see tangible ways in which those elements were showing up in my life, you know, while they weren't like causing me to engage in love. [12:15] destructive behavior, I do think that they were, in many ways, holding me back. [12:21] they were deep thumbprints into my psyche that carried over into my personal relationships. And so I had not [12:29] explored this in any really, really fulsome way and saw Ibogaine as an opportunity maybe to do so. [12:35] Yeah. [12:36] Can I ask, what were your hopes? Like, as you're going into this process, what are you thinking would be the best-case scenario to come out of this? What are your kind of dreams about this? What I mainly hoped was that the drug would sort of kind of open... [12:54] emotional apertures in me and connect me more to whatever is pleasant about life, whatever is pleasant about others, would maybe cause me to look at myself in less of a self-lacerating way. And to be clear, even though you did end up writing about this for The Times Magazine, it sounds like you weren't originally doing this for journalism. Like, that wasn't one of your motivations here. [13:24] I had no intention of writing about this. [13:27] So, when a person... [13:29] You. [13:30] decides they want to try Ibogaine. What is the process? Given that it's illegal in the U.S., what are the logistics of making that happen?

[13:41] Well, I guess to begin with, you better be prepared to buy a ticket because, as you say, you can't get it in the States. So you go elsewhere. And I think most people go to Mexico, though there are places all over Asia, Europe and parts of Africa. Some of them very kind of boutique, very spa like. But the one that Sinema and Perry had gone to and a number of veterans that I'd interviewed was this place called MBO Life Science, located just south of Tijuana, Mexico. [14:11] It costs $8,350 unless you're a veteran or first responder, in which case they give you $1,000 discount. That's significant. [14:19] Yeah, yeah. And there are organizations such as a group called Vets for Veterans that can offer grants to allow military veterans to go there without having to pay so much money. So once I determined that [14:33] MBO is where I'd like to go. I reached out to the people there and learned that they have a very long waiting list, but that there are frequently cancellations if you're willing to be flexible. And I then said, you know, any chance you've got anything in the month of November? This was in, I suppose, August that I reached out to them. And they said, [14:55] Thanksgiving. Wow. You know, I didn't have any plans anyway. So I said, OK, sure. Sign me up. [15:06] All right, we're going to take a little break, and then we'll talk about your experience on Ibogaine. We'll be right back.

[15:13] Thank you. [15:24] you [15:25] Thank you. [15:28] Fast is only right when it's not reckless. Right now, pressure to adopt AI quickly is real. [15:34] Your competitors feel it. Your board feels it. [15:38] Moving fast without the right governance in place isn't a strategy. [15:42] It's a risk. One Trust provides the visibility into what's moving across your organization, the intelligence to understand what it means, and the guardrails to keep everything in bounds. [15:53] So teams move with speed and confidence. That's AI-ready governance. Governance that helps you go. [15:59] Visit onetrust.com backslash governance. [16:12] From vibrant night markets and cities that glow after midnight, to centuries-old temples, world-class dining, and quiet mornings by the mountains and sea. [16:21] Life here feels deeply human. [16:24] There is a warmth in Taiwan that makes a stranger feel welcome. Taiwan. Waves of wonder. Taiwan. Closer than you think. A place that stays with you. Your small business deserves an advantage beyond just fiber. So Comcast Business built one. The Total Solutions Advantage. Hi, I'm Christian Nascimento, SVP of Connectivity at Comcast Business. Small businesses are juggling a lot, so they need a network that can keep up. That's where Comcast Business comes in.

[16:54] network available, plus gig speeds with next-gen equipment and advanced security included. That's reliability, security, and savings, all in one. Get started for as low as $60 a month. Visit comcastbusiness.com. That's comcastbusiness.com. [17:10] Okay, Robert, you've made the decision that you're going to go down to Mexico over Thanksgiving to take Ibogaine. Where does the story of this trip begin? What happens first? I took a plane to San Diego Airport and spent the night in an airport hotel, as did the other 10 people who would be part of my group. The next morning, we all gathered in the lobby. [17:40] past Tijuana, and then took a ride down sort of a rubble-strewn alleyway that dead-ended into this compound that was looming over the Pacific Ocean. The place looks kind of like a southwest villa, you know, with a very, very gracious outdoor patio with a swimming pool overlooking the ocean. [18:03] It's like a very, very nice Airbnb, I'm imagining. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. With a large kitchen set up to cook dinners for a dozen or so, and you— [18:14] have a sense of [18:17] So professionalism and efficiency from the very beginning that people are friendly, but nonetheless with their own agendas. The first thing they did after showing each of us to our rooms was to search all of our belongings to make sure we hadn't brought any drugs or alcohol. Our phones were eventually confiscated so that when you're on Ibogaine, there's actually like a danger that you'll drunk dial.

[18:47] that they don't have some kind of heart or other condition that could endanger their welfare, but also just to make sure that they really kind of emotionally and psychologically know what they're doing. Right. They're ensuring you're committed to it, it sounds like. Yeah, that's right. And so 36 hours passed before we did the Ibogaine. And in those 36 hours, there were documentaries we watched, there were Q&As, there were individual sessions, [19:17] group sessions, all of them designed in totality just to make us understand fully, you know, what we're getting ourselves into. There was a welcome tutorial documentary that we saw that was hosted by the co-founder of Ambio, Trevor Miller, in which he talked about what was likely to happen, but no guarantees with our Ibogaine journey. And he said that maybe 75 to [19:47] Yeah, yeah. No, I know. I mean, vomiting is not my thing. I don't enjoy it. But I also had figured, you know, if that's the price that I pay, then okay. [19:55] And he equated Ibogaine to a roller coaster. And he said, you know, there will be ups and there will be downs. But the one thing that you don't want to do is try to get off the roller coaster. [20:07] Okay, so... [20:09] You're there, you're surrounded by these other people who have agreed based on the same premise. They are fully in. Can you just tell me about them if you're willing to talk about these other folks you were surrounded by? Did you learn why they were there?

[20:25] The majority of them were combat veterans, and a number of those suffered from substance abuse and suicidal ideation, in a couple of cases, traumatic brain injury. There was an Army Ranger named Rick who was really, really quiet and had said that he had undertaken ayahuasca and tried other things too, but the memories that he had in combat had really been bedeviling him for a long time. [20:55] who was from Eritrea, she started talking about the war there and couldn't even finish her sentence and broke down in sobs. And so we were left to imagine whatever she had dealt with before she fled that country. There was a fellow Texan woman named Erin, a corporate consultant, who had experienced trauma that she didn't detail, that [21:16] took place in her childhood. And so they were, you know, very forthcoming in talking about, in most cases, and I should say that like you could see, they were wearing it in their physical posture. Just this great weight, not only what had brought them there, but of all of the attempts that they had undertaken before to rid themselves of whatever demons, you know, possessed them. I'm imagining people kind of hunched over inward. [21:46] And I think that we were in essence saying to each other, you know, we're, um, we're all kind of a mess, you know, and, and, um, we're all here because we're pretty much at the end of our rope.

[21:55] Okay, so when the process of actually taking the drug begins, what does that look like? Take me through that. [22:04] start to finish. [22:06] Yeah, the process really begins well before the drug is administered. We had blood tests, heart tests. We were all fitted with intravenous ports. Each got a couple of IV bags filled with a proprietary blend of vitamins that basically just keeps your body nourished in anticipation of a period when you're going to be fasting and your body's going to be undergoing this really, really rigorous experience. It's like you're about to run a marathon. [22:36] I mean, I will say that MBO does so much of this out of an abundance of caution and as sort of elaborate and even daunting as it is on a certain level. It's reassuring because they're leaving nothing to chance. So you have this intense 36-hour prep session. Now it's time to take the Ibogaine. How do you actually consume it? So we were administered our first of four dosages of Ibogaine. It came in the form of a capsule, a big fat capsule. [23:06] And we were then led down to the treatment room, which is in the basement and is this long rectangular room where there were 11 mats on the floor. How close are you sitting to everybody else? About roughly... [23:24] four feet apart. Okay. Something like that. And so where I was in a corner, the person to my right was the corporate consultant from Texas, Aaron. And then directly behind me were two of the combat veterans. And situated in front of each mattress is a mirror and a maraca. A mirror and a maraca. Yeah. Wow. This is so you can like first sit and just kind of

[23:52] Look at yourself, have a dialogue with yourself. The maraca is actually to synchronize yourself with the music that will soon be coming up. And then to the right of your mattress, in addition to the blanket and the pillow, to the right of it is the bucket for nausea. [24:09] And so we all got on our respective mattresses and then in come the heart monitors and they put the patches on your chest. And so now you're, you know, you've got a machine that you're hooked up to. Does this sound appetizing to you, Natalie? Yeah, I'm struggling to imagine wanting to be in a scenario where, you know, the first thing that happens is in come the heart monitors. But I mean, I'm impressed. I'm impressed that you didn't run out of the room, frankly. Nobody did. [24:39] again, throughout the evening and early morning, there were people there, about a half a dozen or so of medics. And just to keep an eye on, you know, your heart monitor, any other difficulty you may have. And then at around 11, 12, [24:55] p.m. or so, the lights were dimmed and the music was turned on. What was the music? It was, the first couple of songs were music from the indigenous community where Ibogaine is used, and the one telltale feature of that music is the Bwiti mouth harp that's played in this very staccato fashion throughout.

[25:25] And I started rattling the maraca along to the music. And I felt a little bit goofy doing this. And so after maybe 45 seconds or so, [25:33] I decided that I would stop. I also noticed I was beginning to get lightheaded. [25:38] we were all equipped with these very heavy-duty eye masks. So I lay back... [25:43] and slid on my eye mask. And the moment I did so, the hallucinations began in earnest. This is your first inkling, it sounds like, that, okay, this trip is really underway. Yes, and as I even mention that, I'm actually getting goosebumps because it remains so present to me, the sensation of realizing this is not at all what my imagination or what any of the available information had told me it would be. [26:12] What was it? [26:13] I'm dying to know. Yeah, well, the first were, it was like a film strip, like six images, and they were all of what appeared to be tribal chiefs. And then those images... [26:27] dissolved. And then they were replaced by new images. And I don't remember all of them, but I remember very distinctly that some of them were quite troubling. There was a battlefield and there were bodies strewn across a battlefield. There was another one of what looked to be a lot of starving children. [26:48] And all of these were static images. But then the next image that came up was the only one that was not static, which was a pile of rocks and then these long black snakes slithering out of the rocks. Oh, terrifying. Now, you know, a good therapist will tell you, Natalie, that actually snakes symbolize transformation. Terrifying transformation. Yeah, right. Right. But I did think, yeah, this, you know, this could be unpleasant.

[27:19] And while I was seeing these things, I was feeling something that, again, no one had quite prepared me for, that my whole body would feel like it was buzzing. It would feel like that I'd been strapped up to something that gave forth electrical currents and somebody just turned the knob a little bit. It didn't hurt, but it's just my whole body was beginning to feel like its neurons were firing. And I noticed my hands began to sweat. [27:48] is like nothing I could imagine. [27:51] And were you anxious at this point? I mean, for— I was not. Not for a second. I actually had this kind of almost clinical fascination as I saw all of this stuff. It was more wondrous than it was terrifying. And I actually welcomed the idea of just completely surrendering to the drug. When I realized how powerful it was, I thought, actually, this makes the job of surrendering easy because this is—this is— [28:19] not a drug I can defeat. You don't have a choice. You must surrender. That's right. And the thing about it is that your mind is very aware of everything. Nothing is muddled. Your mind is quite clear. And so I was having, you know, a dialogue with myself as I was seeing all this stuff, you know, and asking myself, you know, what does this mean? I remember one of the first things

[28:49] of what looked like legal paper, and on it was some handwriting. And I [28:55] instantly recognized that handwriting. It was my handwriting when I was in second grade. [29:00] And when I was just deciding to become a writer, I remember saying to myself, you have to remember this. You know, the experience you're describing where you are aware, it has the feeling to me of like being awake during your own surgery. You know what I mean? Like you're watching the thing happen. And maybe that also explains why you remember so many of these images so well. [29:30] memory as it is. But look, this was a 10-hour journey. And I probably remember... [29:37] two hours of it, you know? So a lot of it has been lost in the recesses. But there were some things that were just unforgettable, particularly when photographic images came up of members of my family. [29:51] And, you know, I saw my mother and I saw my father and I saw my younger brother and I saw my older brother. And there would be images of each of them and of them together. And some of them were of actual photographs in our family photo albums. And some of them were not. [30:06] And then they would kind of crumble, and the faces themselves would crumble. And then an image of my wife, Kirsten, came up. And Kirsten's mother died recently, and she's been going through a lot of grief over that. So I remember actually having a dialogue with the Ibogaine, saying, "Please don't make her face crumble."

[30:25] It's just too, it's too painful to see that. And it showed some clemency. It did not. Instead, just held her image there, a really lovely image of her. [30:35] And then it was just replaced by another. [30:43] Eventually, I saw images of myself, and those were striking to me because they were definitely not photographs that exist. [30:54] They were instead images of me... [30:57] in a state of almost preposterous self-assurance. I seemed so confident, not happy in a giddy way, but just pleased with my place in the world. And it was, you know, unquestionably me, but on a certain level, almost unrecognizable. And I realized, you know, in looking that the IB game was trying to project for me an image of myself as I should have it. [31:26] And to me, that was striking just as it was striking that when an image of my brother, Eli, came up, it went quickly away. [31:37] So did you, you saw Eli? You saw your brother? I did, but he was just one of many. And so, you know, it was as if I began with saying, that's actually not what we're going to talk about tonight. We're not going to talk about your brother. We're going to talk about you. [31:54] And what did you, if you remember, what were your feelings when you...

[31:58] saw, for example, the images of your family or of you in this kind of confident state. I remember I had the capacity to say, that's an unmarred version of me. That's a me I recognize and yet that I haven't seen before. [32:19] you [32:21] I mean, an image of me that I recognize but haven't seen before is a really powerful idea. [32:28] Yeah, yeah. It really sort of took my breath away. And now, while all this is going on, I should say that there were these interruptions, you know, that I'd hear the two veterans behind me were just like this sad Greek chorus of pukers. It seemed like the— The worst Greek chorus ever. Right. But I also, you know, throughout it, like, heard things. I heard Aaron next to me saying to the medics, [32:55] This bed is not comfortable at all. I need to move. It's not comfortable. I asked her later, you know, I'm so sorry about your discomfort. Was, you know, did they do anything about that? And she said, I don't know what you're talking about. I loved my bed. It was so comfortable. Oh, wow. So I just, you know. So that was a hallucination. Yeah, yeah. And I was hearing, I heard like another person scream that did not... [33:16] in my view, detract from it. They weren't so powerful as to make me think, you know, I'm never going to remember this because all I remember is Derek behind me puking. But they were just sort of part of the whole 10-hour psychodrama.

[33:30] So when does it end? It ended at, let's see, I think at 830 in the morning when I heard a voice say, it's time for your magnesium. And I lifted up my eye mask and saw a shaft of light coming through a window. And I realized then, you know, OK, it's behind us now. Yeah. [33:52] And so there was certainly relief for me when it was over. And so they hooked us up with a couple of IV bags of magnesium and it took about two hours for them to drain. And I was hoisted up to my feet and a person allowed me to lean heavily on them until I made my way back to my room. [34:11] And that's how I began Thanksgiving. [34:14] All right. Well, let's take another short break, and then we'll hear about what stayed with you after all this. We'll be right back. Thank you. [34:27] Thank you. [34:35] Thank you. [34:37] Fast is only right when it's not reckless. Right now, pressure to adopt AI quickly is real. [34:43] Your competitors feel it. Your board feels it. [34:46] Moving fast without the right governance in place isn't a strategy. [34:50] It's a risk. One Trust provides the visibility into what's moving across your organization, the intelligence to understand what it means, and the guardrails to keep everything in bounds.

[35:01] So teams move with speed and confidence. That's AI-ready governance. Governance that helps you go. [35:07] Visit onetrust.com backslash governance. [35:30] Life here feels deeply human. [35:33] There is a warmth in Taiwan that makes a stranger feel welcome. Taiwan. Waves of wonder. Taiwan. Closer than you think. A place that stays with you. [35:44] This podcast is supported by the Propane Education and Research Council. [35:48] America's energy security is on thin ice. We're challenged by an overburdened electrical grid, rising energy costs, and disruptive severe weather. You could wait until one of these stops you cold, or you can make a power play with propane. [36:03] It's affordable, abundant, safe, and made in the U.S. Propane is reliable energy, even when the grid isn't. Visit propane.com slash powerplay to gain the ultimate energy advantage. [36:17] Okay, Robert, you had just gone on this trip for an entire night. How did you feel? [36:25] Like crap. I really felt terrible. I mean, in fact, I struggled to think of a day when I felt physically worse than the one I did on what they call, with lovely understatement, gray day, a day of introspection. Gray day.

[36:55] hallucinations. I was still seeing the film strips of images. And I could barely stand on my own power. I could barely walk. And I thought, you know, tomorrow evening, you know, it's going to be my last evening here. And then the morning after that, I head back and I, if I'm like this, I can't function. The New York Times is going to fire me. My wife is going to divorce me. I mean, I'm just going to be like this worthless pineapple of a human being. And, and, uh, [37:25] So you're struggling. You're struggling. I struggled, and I ultimately, after being unable to have dinner, went to sleep Thanksgiving evening and woke up the next morning at 6.30, [37:35] Just feeling like a million dollars. I mean, I was stunned by how good I was. And my body no longer ate. There were no longer any hallucinations. The drug had moved its way out of the system and really felt terrific, as did all of the others. [38:05] from the toxic secretions of the Sonoran desert toad. [38:10] And it's a very, very intense, but also short-lived drug. It only lasts about 10 minutes or so. Still, right when you're feeling better, they're offering you another opportunity. Well, the truth is, you know, that, I mean, everyone felt better that day than they did on their gray day. But a number of the people didn't feel so well. They had a very, very rickety, to say the least, Ibogaine experience. And what 5-MeO-DMT has been described as is...

[38:39] It's almost a euphoria-inducing drug that has the effect of sanding off the very rough edges of your Ibogaine experience. And is that what it was? What was it like? Well, it comes, the drug does, in the form of something you smoke. Someone gives you this long-stemmed pipe, and you breathe in deeply, and then you fall back with an eye mask on. And at first, I didn't know what to make of the drug. [39:09] in the last day and a half, my mind was just racing about [39:14] And at a certain point, I started rubbing my chest. And it's something that I do right around my solar plexus, almost as if I'm trying to kind of push away something or protect myself from something. You do that generally, you're saying? Yeah, I do that generally. [39:29] But then I just then, while lying there, had this memory of a photograph that my younger brother had unearthed recently, which was a photo of me probably at the age of like four or three. And it was me and my brother Eli on the lawn of our house in Houston. And he was lying on top of me. Wow. [39:59] the crap out of me. But you can also see that my face looks alarmed and I look like I'm being suffocated. Whoa, Robert. But from there, my mind suddenly jumped forward in time to my years as a

[40:29] He's on my upper arms pinned to the ground and hitting me in the solar plexus with his fingers. [40:38] Doing that repeatedly to me as he had done. Yes. [40:43] And I began to make this connection then, this very physical connection to this thing that I often do. [40:59] force in my life when I had spent so much time more thinking about the tragedy of him dying so young rather than what he had inflicted on me and on my younger brother. And suddenly you're on this trip and you're having this vision that leads you to another vision and you're realizing all of this, like that motion that I do to myself is connected to this experience of what, I mean, you called it [41:29] think about moments in the present day where I've rubbed my solar plexus, and it's usually in moments of stress or a moment where I'm feeling some discomfort. I'm feeling him on me, I'm now realizing. Wow. And so that was a pretty sort of startling thing. It felt very much like a kind of

[42:00] So... [42:00] I have to ask, what was it like returning home after all this? [42:05] I did feel in the first few days in particular, almost like walking around in a space suit, you know, on the moon or something, you know, just still not quite sure how to relate the experience that I'd had to all the phenomena around me. Did you feel heavy? No, no, I did not. [42:35] to it. The drug stays in your system in terms of what it does to your neural pathways for a period, you know, for over a month. And you're returning to invariably, you know, to real life with all that that means. And so I've just had to kind of let this integrate itself into the demands of my everyday existence. What about that neuroplasticity piece that we talked about? [43:05] that you had... [43:07] parts of your own mind [43:10] opened in some way, that you were... [43:13] able to see yourself differently. I'm thinking of obviously the image of you at your most confident. Like, did that... [43:22] remain, did that unlock something? Yes, but is what I would say. I mean, like so many therapeutic treatments, I think there's always the prospect of backsliding, a moment where, you know, you run into conflict and feel the worst of yourself rising up in you.

[43:43] What has happened with me is that it has spurred [43:48] a different kind of internal dialogue in me that I'm still at pains to describe how it differentiates itself from whatever the usual blah, blah, blah inside me is taking place. But I do have more searching questions of why did I do that or how am I letting this affect my own self-regard? [44:13] And it has definitely added a kind of depth to how I regard the outside world and my place in it. There is, you know, a space, a journey that connects, you know, the kid on the grass with a brother on top of him to this sort of transfigured image of this other version of me. [44:35] that is out from under that earlier predicament. That's free. Yeah. And so that's, I suppose, you know, the journey that I've been on. But understanding both points, the beginning point and the end point, is a clarifying and useful experience for me. [44:55] Well, Robert, thank you for letting us into your journey and for sharing everything you did. We really appreciate it. Sure thing, Natalie. [45:04] Today's episode was produced by Tina Antolini, with help from Alex Barron. It was edited by Wendy Doerr and engineered by Rowan Nemistow. It contains music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Nemistow, Dan Powell, and Diane Wong. Our production manager is Franny Kartoff. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrowef.

[45:34] See you tomorrow. [45:37] *music* [45:44] Innovation loves speed, risk doesn't. For most organizations, that tension never goes away. [45:51] Every time a new AI capability appears, the pressure to move fast collides with the responsibility to move safely. [45:58] One Trust is built for this moment. [46:01] Their AI-ready governance platform provides context to understand your data, controls to stay ahead of risk, and confidence to act boldly. [46:09] Governing well and moving fast aren't trade-offs. [46:13] They're complimentary when done right. [46:15] That is governance that helps you go. Visit onetrust.com backslash governance.