JRE MMA Show #170 with Michael "Venom" Page

[00:00] the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day we're up all right mvp in the house yes [00:16] The most enigmatic, difficult dude to solve in all of MMA. That's you, man. Bro, you know what? I want to start simply because... [00:27] You... [00:27] what you have done for me specifically... [00:31] I get a lot of criticism, a lot of hate, and especially, obviously, jumping when I first got into the MMA world. New to me, you know, I'm just like, okay, let me just be myself, do my thing. [00:45] First fight goes well. [00:48] Land this crazy kick, go viral, and I get nothing. [00:51] hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. But then having prominent figures like yourself, [00:56] that are constantly have been champion my style, champion [01:03] championing the points element of things. [01:07] I just appreciate you for that. Oh, my pleasure, brother. I appreciate you. It's almost like we called for you because there was a time in the early days of MMA, like in the early 2000s, where I was like, this is what's missing. What's missing is point fighters. And people would like mock me. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I've sparred with these dudes. You can't hit them. It's a different thing. [01:27] I'm like, they have a very specific skill, that skill of closing distance and being elusive. It's not like any other sport. It's almost like fencing and MMA and martial arts combined. Yeah, I always tell people that, like,

[01:40] Most of the combat sports in terms of kickboxing, the full contact side of things, [01:45] is more to do with the... There's a fixation on power knocking people out. Whereas... [01:50] our element is just the speed element. - Yes. - Just getting in and getting out. Not getting touched. Like you said, the tag, tag kind of feel, fencing, similar kind of footwork. [01:59] Yeah, just not many people had decided to cross over to... [02:04] any kind of full contact world really. And he had the likes of Wonderboy Thompson. Raymond Daniels. Raymond Daniels. You and Raymond were the most prominent ones in him and Glory. Of course you. Yeah. Well he did a little bit MMA. A little bit MMA. But you're more prominent in MMA. But the point was that [02:22] This was an element that when I remember when I was doing Taekwondo and I would fight in tournaments, I would occasionally fight in point fighting tournaments. I'd fight a guy like Mafia Holloway or one of these guys that were really good. I'm like, this is crazy. This is such a crazy skill. Very different. And when I saw MMA where a lot of guys were just like real flat-footed and waiting, I'm like, there's a giant opening here. And then you came along. And you really were the proof of concept. And I was like, okay, this is it. [02:52] that, who figures all the other stuff out, [02:55] Because – [02:56] Essentially, striking is striking. You can learn throwing leg kicks differently. You can learn different stances and movements. The grappling is the big hurdle. But once you can solve the takedown defense and some of the grappling hurdles, and you've actually got some mission victories...

[03:12] Then you got a real problem because every fight starts standing up exactly every fight starts standing up with a big-ass fucking cage [03:21] And I see guys like Kevin Holland like he's like what? [03:27] He hated every moment of it. I could feel it but that's that's as part of my style is that kind of frustrating? people because it's just so unfamiliar for someone like yourself you'd kind of I [03:40] Being there, whether you're successful or not, you'd understand what's happening. And you'd be calm enough still to be like, okay, I need to know how to figure this out because I've experienced this before. Yeah. For someone that's never experienced, and because there's few of us in the MMA world... [03:55] Who do you go to to train? [03:56] There's very few people that are really good at that. Yeah, and like I said Wonder Boy Thompson [04:02] Yeah. He... [04:03] A friend of mine [04:05] obviously me and him and us getting on [04:08] And he's even said people have contacted him. [04:11] Like, oh, yeah, I'm fighting MVP. Like, I want to train with you. He's like, I want MVP to win. So he's like. I can't help you, bro. I can't do anything. Well, it's good for the sport. Yeah. It really is because, you know, like, think about there's certain techniques just come along like the calf kick. And all of a sudden, like, how is this? People have been kicking legs for so long. How is this kicking a different spot on the leg kind of revolutionized? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [04:41] And make a lot of these guys that are like high-level point guys go, hmm. Mm-hmm.

[04:44] There's a spot there for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's always an advantage in the fact that every round starts standing up. As long as you have takedown defense, every round starts in your realm. And your realm is different than all the other stand-up realms. [05:01] It's totally different. And if a guy is a plotting guy and he thinks, oh, this is my world. That's not your world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's your world against someone who agrees to fight the way you fight. 100%. Yeah. And I always say that because I've come up against guys and I was like, man, he's got a big hit, a big punch on him. And I agree. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But power only means something if you land. Yeah. And my whole element is like not being touched. It's also fucking with people's heads. Yeah. [05:31] During the Jared Cannoneer fight, after you hit him, you were like, "Calm down." I was like, "Oh, no." Because you imagine just getting popped, your eyes are running, your nose hurts. And this dude standing in front of you going, "Calm down." "Calm down." I'm like, "No, he didn't." "Oh, no." It's psychological warfare. But that's the end. That's obviously, that's kind of like part of my personality coming out and the entertaining side of me. And a lot, obviously, [05:58] Added to the criticism that I would get, which... [06:01] because of how I would make my opponents feel in terms of their frustration and then obviously the antics on top of it, so many people, the main term that came with me was like, oh, he's fighting cans. He's fighting cans. My whole career was, oh, he's fighting cans. But I always say to people, I'm just making it seem...

[06:23] A lot... [06:24] Less difficult. [06:25] than it actually is. These guys are super talented fighters. I'm just not fighting on the same wavelength. [06:31] and timing as them as you said these guys that plod around they're so used to it so when they're fighting other people it looks a lot of people. [06:38] very even. [06:39] And when they're fighting somebody that they just can't get their hands on, and they're getting frustrated on top of that. So it's the mental side, the physical side. [06:47] And you have a lot of power, so there's consequences. Yeah, there's consequences. It's not like you're tippy-tappy, patting them. Every now and then, like the cyborg fight was one of the craziest knockouts in all of MMA history. [06:59] You know, I... [07:00] One thing I actually wanted to do, I actually... [07:02] Brought some gifts for you. But one of the things I actually wanted to bring for you was... Don't tell me you brought a piece of his head. No. [07:10] He wouldn't let me have that. So, yeah. I have to leave it. I actually wanted to... We basically had a Pokeball come. It was a very specific one. And... [07:18] They messed up on delivery, but I'm going to get it to you in Vegas. Okay. So when we go over to Vegas, I'm just making sure. [07:24] I get that to you because, again, it's something that you've spoken about with me. And it's a big part of my history. [07:31] In MMA, just that cyborg fight. That was the most gruesome. [07:36] I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of broken bones. I've never seen someone with a caved in head. Yeah, the doctors were saying that what we were hearing back from them said he's... [07:46] Only ever seen that in a car accident, never in... [07:49] Yeah, that's me. Yeah, that is so crazy. Yeah. And that was his last fight. And I know after the fight, he was like, we're going to fight again. The doctor's like, hey, yeah, because I think he was.

[08:01] Someone sent me something where he was supposed to fight again. And... [08:06] I'm not sure what happened there, but yeah, he didn't. It's crazy. How could you fight again after that? What made it? I felt [08:12] Very bad, obviously, at the time as well. [08:15] But then I didn't see him for another two years. Boom. [08:20] That was just crazy. And the sound that was... [08:24] It's only when I watch this back. Give me this sound, Jamie. [08:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [08:55] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. [09:25] meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

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[11:27] generic internet data. This is AI designed specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls while you sleep, dispatching your texts, helping you run your back office, growing your revenue. One platform, fully automated, always learning, always improving. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more, [11:57] at servicetitan.ai. The thing is, I didn't know. I keep telling everybody, I didn't know what happened because obviously they're like, you celebrated like threw the pokeball at him afterwards. [12:06] I did not know. You thought it was just a knockout. Yeah, this was a knockout. And obviously, because I'm kicking his legs, I'm assuming maybe I broke his nose or... [12:14] Because I can see he's not out, but he's in pain. It must be something like that. It's only the next day that I found out. But, yeah, it was a bad one. That was a bad one. Yeah, it was a very bad one. And the thing is, like I said, I met him... [12:27] Yeah. [12:28] I want to say like two, two and a half years later down the line. [12:32] Obviously, this clip's just been going crazy online and so on and so forth. And I just, I felt awkward. I didn't want to. But also, he had come over for another MMA show, but with one of his students. [12:44] But one of his students was fighting one of my teammates. [12:47] And at the beginning, my coaches were like, oh, do you want to, you know, go and at some point go and see him and... [12:53] say hello, I was like, yeah, please, like, I'd love to, because that's the last time I saw him, and

[12:59] The fight happens... [13:01] And my teammate is known for his leg locks and breaks his... [13:07] his students leg. So I'm like, for fuck's sake. So the officers are like, do you want to go and see him? I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll try. I just, I just felt like I needed to. Sure. And I kind of walk into the room. His guy's obviously upset for losing. He's like getting sorted out by the medics and he's sitting there just looks at me and I'm like, [13:26] hey. [13:30] What do you say? Like, I'm lucky. I was just like, he shook my hand like, [13:38] I could just feel the energy wasn't right. It just wasn't the right time about I didn't know when I'd get to see him again. And I haven't again since so. Yeah, I just felt it's just one of those things. I just felt bad. Yeah. But what do you do? There's nothing. Yeah. What do you do? What do you do? I got a broken leg. You broke his head. It's just just stay the fuck away from you and your crew. I mean, at least you're nice about it and friendly. Yeah, it is what it is. Yeah, it's such interesting because you've. [14:07] train with um marius uh my coaches one of my coaches marius uh and um obviously he says to say hello tomas and i yeah yeah yeah he said he trained with you guys i think you guys trained for about four years with eddie bravo yeah i've known him for 20 years yeah crazy crazy crazy [14:25] And that's obviously, that's a big part of my history now with... [14:28] them them to the brothers Alexis and Marius we were the gym when when Lee when Lee Murray was no no no I was just after luckily but interestingly though when I was in at the time I

[14:43] He was around. [14:45] I was still very heavily focused on the points fight and kickboxing. [14:50] So... [14:51] But a friend of mine was training at shoot and he was like, you need to come and train with these guys. These guys are serious. But for me, MMA was just never going to be a thing that I'd ever see myself in. Really? [15:02] I've always seen it as... [15:04] I guess like you'll [15:05] average fan [15:07] back in the day and sometimes now of the ass brutal man like i right and again i'm a points fighter like i don't see myself being good enough to or tough enough [15:15] to fight these guys. What changed? [15:19] I [15:21] Obviously, Matt had a successful career in the kickboxing, but I didn't. [15:24] Thank you. [15:25] didn't really go anywhere. It's like you're fighting the same people. The amount of times me and Raymond have fought, and we were like some of the top two guys, like if we're both in the competition... [15:36] Like we both walk in the room, everyone was like, oh my god, these guys are going to fight. We were the guys. [15:41] But [15:42] I'm fighting the same people and it's just like everything, everyone hoping that you're going to lose or your fans are kind of like supporting you. And then I come back to reality and, [15:51] come off a plane, I travelled, I fought all, you know, the whole week or whatever, won a world title and I've come back home and then, [15:59] Nothing. [16:00] Like, they come back home to... [16:02] just me being myself, just me being me. [16:04] which I'm okay with, but there's no recognition. There was no sponsorship. I paid to do that. [16:11] everything and I loved it and if I could choose the route again I'd still do it

[16:16] because I absolutely loved it. [16:18] Bye. [16:19] I'm getting older... [16:21] and this comes to a point where I'm now starting to [16:23] At the time, I'm a kid. [16:26] But now it gets to the point where I have to work. And so now it's like, I can't do this forever. But at the same time, [16:32] I know I want to... [16:34] compete. [16:35] For a living. [16:36] I just didn't know what... [16:37] in one. [16:39] So then I'd [16:40] said to myself, okay, cool. [16:42] Let me... [16:44] I need to take a step away from this. I know while I'm in this, this will be a distraction. I'm not going to be able to focus on things because another competition that I'm going to want to win is going to come up and it's going to turn my attention. So I said, look, I'm going to I said to everyone I'm retired. I thought, let me say it to as many people as possible. [16:59] So then it's hard for me to turn back on it. [17:01] So I'm just like, yeah, I'm okay. Yeah, I'm retiring now not fine again. Yeah, that's my last fight that are there [17:07] And I said, cool. [17:08] started to [17:10] go around looking at boxing gyms, [17:13] Looking at full contact kickboxing, looking at MMA gyms. [17:17] And the first gym I actually went to was in Miami, [17:21] Coconut Crete American Top Team. Ah. Yeah. Because my sister used to live in that area. [17:29] because I've got siblings over in America as well. [17:32] So... [17:33] Came out there. And in my head at the time, there's only few people from the UK that was doing anything. [17:40] in MMA. So when I was like, maybe I'm going to try MMA, [17:43] How's that? [17:44] obviously I have to go to America. And I'm lucky enough to have siblings that live over there, so...

[17:48] I'm good. [17:49] So get to America, get to American top team. I go in there. I'm like, this is where I'm going to start. Like I've met a couple of the coaches and just kind of just like general chit chat. I didn't tell them who I was or anything. Just kind of saw the vibe. The facilities are amazing. I was like, yeah, this is this is going to be my new life. [18:06] And then I get back to England and... [18:09] A good friend of mine, Marvin Francis, was like... [18:12] Just in case, just have a look at some gyms over here. You don't know. Because obviously I've got things to sort out before I can just make the full move. [18:19] So while you're doing that, let's have a look at a couple of gyms. And we did some research. We went to a couple of the Gracie gyms, went to a few other gyms that was around, and [18:26] that I found London Shoot Fighters, I hadn't done any research. And at this time, I personally wasn't [18:32] watching MMA [18:34] At all. The only person I use. What year is this? [18:37] This ought to have been. [18:39] Thank you. [18:40] . [18:41] I'd have been what, 24? [18:48] What's that about? [18:49] Ahem. [18:51] It's over... [18:53] 12, 13... [18:55] years back. [18:57] I was trying to say the only guys in the UK would have been... [19:00] Brad Pickett was fighting... [19:02] Solid Fighter. Solid Fighter. [19:06] Michael Bispin. [19:07] was 5'10". [19:09] But... [19:10] And nobody had achieved anything of big quality from there. Everything was in America. Yeah. [19:16] Was Bisping still living in England or had he moved to America? I think he was still in England.

[19:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [19:23] But again, I was only learning it [19:25] as I got more into it. [19:27] but initially I just thought I made the decision without actually researching the [19:31] anything, which is very much like me. I'll just jump in headfirst. I'll figure it out afterwards. [19:42] I literally, I said to myself, okay, cool. [19:44] I've got to... [19:47] London Shoot Fighters. And the only person I knew was Chuck Liddell. That's what I've actually seen. And I just was like, this guy was just knocking people out. I was like, I could relate to that. I was like, he's a striker. [19:57] Everything else I didn't really care for. I was a typical fan. Like, when they got on the floor, I was like, Oh! [20:06] Stand up! Stand them up! [20:09] And I've never been to a show or anything, but... [20:12] These are. [20:13] He's a guy that I like watching, and I made a decision that I want to do it. Cool. [20:18] I started in London Shoot Fighters. And for some reason, the guys there... I don't know what... [20:24] Because I've had good coaching. Um... [20:28] So... [20:29] in my outbring. So I feel like I can hear sense. When I've gone to a place, I'm hearing how they're coaching and what they're saying. And I'm like, it just makes sense to me. [20:37] I was like, cool, I want to start here. I still want to go to America, but I'll start here for now. [20:42] and then just see where it goes. [20:44] Fell in love with the place. Was that the first time you did any grappling at all? Any grappling at all. Wow. Didn't do anything. [20:50] I... [20:51] All I was doing every day was

[20:54] I was just applauding people because I was tapping every two seconds. I'll just say it. [21:00] Every two seconds. It's frustrating, right? But I loved it, though. Oh, well, you have a good mindset. Yeah, it was weird. Like, I kind of enjoyed the fact that, like, I'm looking at this guy like, if I saw you on the street, in my head. Right. I'm destroying you. Yeah. Yeah. [21:15] But this guy just twisted me up into a pretzel. It's a humiliating feeling. Oh, so humiliating. But again, I crave... [21:21] If I go back to the point side, from about, like, you met my brother outside. [21:30] Him, he's the oldest of my siblings. Sorry, of the boys. My sister's the oldest, and it's my brother. I've got two other brothers, then me. And at the time, we... [21:43] We were fighting around [21:44] But they were winning everything. [21:46] I used to get my ass kicked everywhere we went. [21:49] And this is every single weekend [21:51] That's crazy. When something truly works for you, you want people to know about it. AG1 Next Gen is your daily healthy drink. Just one scoop combines your multivitamin, pre- and probiotic superfoods, and antioxidants into one truly simple, delicious habit. I partnered with AG1 for so long because they're committed to constantly improving. [22:21] absorption in the body. And I know I've talked about AG1 for a long time, but if you haven't checked it out in a while, now's the time. AG1 has a lot going on, including new flavors, berries, citrus, and tropical. That'll make showing up for your health even better. You can be an athlete, you could be a gym rat, you could just be a normal person, and AG1 is going to help you feel your best. When you subscribe today, you'll get a free bottle of AGD3K2 and five AG1 travel packs with

[22:51] Just head to drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan or click the link in the description. That's drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan. [23:02] For me, he was the more talented one. But I mean like every single weekend we're driving to Birmingham, to Manchester, to Scotland. We did trips everywhere. My dad started a gym and he was going around everywhere. [23:18] and [23:19] Every weekend. [23:20] there's like three hours that way four hours this way they're coming back and I'm just got a boss lip and they're just the medals are just like clink clink clink clink like they've got all the medals and they're talking about how they spin kicked some guy and they did this and I'm just like yeah yeah cool [23:35] Cool story. And I got destroyed for... [23:40] Thank you. [23:41] four or five years. [23:43] and [23:45] When I got to a qualifiers in Birmingham, [23:51] It was an IASCA qualifiers and I managed to win that, which that in itself was success for me. Like, I'm like, oh, man, I qualified to go to the world championships. [24:03] I've already done well. [24:05] Everyone else was there. So they were supposed to do it. Like they're good enough to have the expectation of themselves. [24:11] So then I get to the world championships and the way they seed fighters in the U.S. was very different to the U.K. at the time. [24:17] So... [24:19] I had one fight, another fight, another fight, and I'm winning.

[24:23] And I'm like happy. I must be in like the finals already. And then I'm like, okay, bring the Cedars fighters in. [24:27] And there's like a shitload of fighters during your mat. And I'm like, oh... [24:33] my dad would tell me he's like yeah i think you're in a in the in the semis i think you're in the quarters and then he's like bro just keep fighting he said he couldn't work out i don't know seriously [24:45] I... [24:46] Genuinely don't remember. I just remember just feeling tired. And I didn't understand why this was still going on. Because in the competitions, three, four fights, you're in a final. Right. And I was... [24:56] at least 10 fights deep I still felt like I was fighting. All in a day? In a day. Wow. So there's a, again, the Ayasca World Champ is in Orlando, Florida. And it was the big, at the time, the biggest points kickboxing competition. [25:12] So there's thousands and thousands of competitors, kids, adults, doing forms, doing, you know, caters and all this stuff. And then you had the points fighting team. [25:22] the light contact fighting and that was it. Um, and yeah, it just, [25:28] All day. And then it literally got to this, like, okay, I've won a fight. And the guy was like, okay, you're in the final next. The referee said that to me. And I was like, oh. [25:35] like i can't believe i'm in the final and this guy was very good i can't remember his name he was young i was i think it's like 12 or 11 at the time [25:44] And... [25:46] I won the fight. [25:47] I just clapped to my back. I was just like, oh my God, everyone ran in there. Because again, nobody expected that of me. And I remember going in there, the trophy itself was six foot tall. And in my head, I was like, I just want one in my house.

[26:01] And I managed to win that. But something... [26:04] that competition clicked so all the times i was getting beaten up [26:08] All the competitions I was getting destroyed at. And I wasn't even close. I was getting destroyed. [26:14] I won this competition and I went back home [26:17] And every person I used to get destroyed by, I was smoking them. Like something was different. Instantaneously. [26:25] weird shift that just went click [26:27] Wow. And all the kicks that I'd walk into face first. I was like, oh, actually, I can do this. I was like, wow, you entered into the matrix. I'd literally, I just, I, to the point, to the point where, so when I went back home, it's like 12 and for the year of that circuit. [26:44] I didn't lose a fight. [26:46] And this is from getting whooped. That's crazy. And I'm fighting all the same guys that I grew up with. And they must have been like, what the hell? Yeah, what the hell's going on here? Then... [26:57] When I was 13, I asked my dad, I was like... [27:00] Can I please fight in the seniors? [27:03] And the seniors are 18... [27:04] Plus. [27:05] And he was like, and he said it to me, he said it to me later on. He was like, as a coach... [27:10] I knew you could. [27:11] as your dad [27:13] I was like, hell no. And I begged him. Every competition, I was like, please, can I find this team? Please. And there was a big British Championship competition. And I begged. I was like, please. He was like, you can do this one. [27:29] And again, I don't think he... [27:30] Remember, these guys are 18 plus by all different sizes as well.

[27:34] I don't think he knew I'd do well, but not as well as I did. [27:38] So I won... [27:39] the my senior division wow for my weight um and like i said these are big men and [27:46] But the problem is... [27:47] whoever, when you win in this competition specifically, when you win your section, you go into the grand championships. [27:54] And I'm like, Dad, you can't let me go. He's like, no, this is different now because they're the winners of their division. That was your weight division. Now these guys are the winners of their own weight. You can't do this. I begged him. And I beat everybody and got to the final. And... [28:13] And the final was really, really close. And I felt like I got robbed. And even my dad was like... [28:18] He could never tell me no after that. [28:20] Because I destroyed some of the best fighters in the UK at the time. [28:25] Do you think it was a confidence thing of having gone through that grueling tournament and proven that you could do it and now you didn't have doubts in your mind anymore? Yeah. [28:34] Was it you had just seen so many different high levels of competition that maybe your own expectations had risen? [28:40] Like, what was it that made that instantaneous shift? Because it's one thing to go and compete and do really well all of a sudden, and like, now I'm competing. But then you went and you were doing it against people that were normally beating you, and you're fucking them up. That's like a 50% shift. That's a giant shift. [29:00] I would say one thing, obviously, I hated losing... [29:04] as anybody would, especially as a kid.

[29:06] um [29:07] And... [29:09] We also, and I think it's for all of us, we wasn't allowed. So a lot of the kids would fight first and then the seniors would fight. But because we all travel down together, we stayed the whole competition. [29:18] until the seniors were finished and we can drive back. A lot of the other kids were messing around [29:23] when obviously like this [29:25] guys that I've spent I've known since I was eight years old that I'm still good friends with now because we were the kids like playing with each other afterwards like just being all cool and [29:33] But my dad was like, no, no, no, you represent me. [29:36] you sit down and watch [29:38] So as much as we could play a little bit when he wasn't looking, but we had to try and get back to the mat to make sure we were watching people. [29:48] I'm a visual learner and I feel like that helped me become that visual learner. As much as I was getting my ass kicked... [29:54] I was also spending time watching... [29:56] amazing athletes at the back. Yeah. [29:58] I think it's an important thing to mention that at that time, there wasn't video readily available like there is today. Exactly. Like, I remember the first time I went to the Taekwondo World Cup. It was in Colorado Springs in 2000. I mean, not 2000, 1980. I think it was 86. And the first time I went, I immediately got better. [30:21] Just by seeing them. Just by seeing everybody. I just went as a spectator. I hadn't beaten anybody to qualify for the Nationals. So when I went there, the whole experience was just absorption. And I came back, and I was much better. Much better. I'd never seen those guys live, but my expectations for competition, my expectations for movement and speed, everything had risen. And at the time, I was 18. So when you're 18, your brain just absorbs. You just absorb.

[30:51] younger yes and oh yeah when you're a little yeah yeah and i like i my first competition i was five years old [30:57] So... [30:59] That is just many years again being up. That's incredible though because your body develops with that. I started a little late I started karate when I was 14 and then wrestling and Taekwondo when I was 15 But I wished I started earlier because I was with these guys that were younger and their little bodies had like grown stretching and they'd grown punching and kicking like develop into that. Yeah, well I [31:23] Funny you say that. I... [31:25] That's where my name came from. So Venom came from when I was... [31:29] 9. [31:30] and [31:32] The only kids that was in my dad's class at the time, mainly, bar a few others, because at the time we did, it was basically one class. He didn't really separate the kids and adults. It was just one class. So I'm trying my best, throwing everything in, to hit adults. [31:46] yeah they're not moving but I'm trying my best to just get some kind of reaction and then when I started hitting people my own size even though I was losing because they were they're just [31:57] obviously I was tall for my age as well so I was fighting kids slightly more naturally developed than me. [32:03] but I had a whack on me. That's a great way to put it. You know what I mean? Even though I wasn't beating these guys, these guys were just way too fast for me. But when I hit them, they felt it. [32:15] and it was one of my, again, Marvin was literally just like, you got some venom in you, man. Yeah. And we was very into like Kung Fu movies back in the day. And then, and I was very, um,

[32:26] creative mind. I love just... [32:28] Even with my martial arts, I learned a jab like this and now I have to [32:31] add something i can't do things conventional i've never never liked to do it if there's a everyone's walking that way like i want to see what's over there like i just i don't know what is wrong i don't know what's wrong with me but what's right with you what's right with me but i just got that like i was curious and creative and so there's a film called the five deadly venoms like old school old school kung fu classic and he would be like yeah five deadly venoms let's [33:01] make up weird moves and try to add it into... And that was always my thing. I'd see something in the movies and I'm like, I'm going to try it in there. This is all while I'm still getting beaten up, by the way, as well. But that never left me. So even when I started... [33:15] beating all these people now [33:17] I'm doing it with the style of flair of like, what more can I do? You know what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah. But it's so... [33:25] perfect for martial arts for you for m_m_a_ because [33:29] A lot of MMA is pattern recognition. You get accustomed to certain types of movements. I know this guy's going to do this. The calf kick's going to be available. I'm going to faint with this, and I'm going to throw that. I'm going to shoot that double here because I know he's going to come with the overhammer right. All these patterns, you don't have normal patterns. So you're moving around, and your hands are down, and you're sideways, and you're like, [33:50] And they have to make up new patterns as they go along. So they have to think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have to react. It's such an advantage. Yeah, and I always tell people that, like, the first time they're actually really going to experience this style is on the night.

[34:02] And you have to figure it out on the night. Because there's not enough guys that have what you can do that also compete in MMA. There might be five or six in the whole world, which is nuts. It's kind of nuts. It's really the – I had been saying this for decades. I'm like, this is the one thing that's missing. And then when you came over, I was like, see? This is what I'm saying. This is crazy. You can't even hit them. It's weird, though. It's a blessing and a curse. [34:32] Uh... [34:34] blessing obviously having the advantages of a fight. [34:39] But sparring [34:40] Headache. [34:42] Earlier, a lot of people wanted to kind of like, let me see what this is about. [34:46] then word spreads quite quickly. And I struggle with sparring. [34:51] I think... [34:52] It's starting to come back now. People are a bit more willing... [34:55] But I struggled with sparring. You just couldn't get sparring. Couldn't get sparring because also, and I kind of see it from other people's point of view. It's like, well, why? I'm not going to fight anybody like that. So why? [35:04] Why am I coming over? Yeah, but if you saw that, if you, with your mindset, you would be like, I got to figure out what the fuck he's doing. 100%. And my teammates, they're forced to. [35:14] Right. And a lot of them, they even say like, I'd spar you and then I go spar someone else. And they feel so slow because I'm when I'm with you, my eyes are like this. I'm forced to be like ultra alert. [35:25] And then I go, and someone's trying to punch it, oh. That's the thing, too. It's exhausting. Yeah. It's exhausting. Your style's exhausting because you always have to be at high alert. There's no moment. Because there's so many times where you've done, like, a shift in rhythm, and it looks like you're slowing down, and then you explode and crack people. And you've done that so successfully so many times that if they've watched any tape, they know there's no moments where you could catch your breath. There's no moments. And you're always putting pressure on them.

[35:55] You're always fainting... [35:57] in the faints alone. See, people don't even know. They don't know. You're just standing there. It looks like you're just standing there, but you're standing there and a guy's fainting and you, you never know when he's going to actually launch. And you, yeah, That's constantly tense. You can't breathe. I mean, [36:11] That's just their energy bar that's doing this without anything happening. Without anything. Without any kicks landing. No punch. Which is actually why I'm actually a big fan of, like, Tom Aspinall as well. Oh, yeah. Because you don't really see that anywhere full stop, but definitely not in a heavyweight division. No heavyweight moves like him. No one moves out there, man. He moves like a 185er. It's crazy. With that kind of explosive and that power, it's crazy. Crazy speed for a heavyweight. Crazy speed. And that's why when the Jon Jones thing was being, you know, [36:41] greatest fighter of all time but he's not the fastest guy in the world yeah he hasn't but he's just so complete and his fight iq is off the charts off the charts like very well-rounded very very well and wild well you know opens up his world title fight with shogun with a flying knee yeah crazy wild you know just just believes in himself goes for it confidence yes goes for it i thought that was a complicated matchup for him it is because that guy's not easy to get to the [37:11] Fuck. And he's big. Yeah. He's a legit 250 pounds natural. Yeah. You know, no, he doesn't need anything. There's no way he can make 205 ever. He's fucking big. Yeah, I got the train with him and I went down there and I was like, this guy, he's a tank. It's a tank. So that's a problem. Yeah. That's a problem when you're not really a heavyweight. As great as John is, and I think John beats most heavyweights that have ever existed.

[37:41] is another problem. That's another problem. Because you're dealing with a real 265 pounds, solid, natural, grew up in the sand mines. Literally. His story is crazy. His story is something else. He told it on the podcast. He told the whole story of him going to Morocco and getting to Europe. That's a movie, man. A crazy movie. I'm surprised nobody has jumped on that. I'm surprised too. Someone needs to. [38:11] that we'll do it we'll do it we'll do it but when he was a child working digging sand in cameroon it's crazy you know [38:18] Incredible. And then you have incredible genetics. And then you have just this fierce mindset from all the shit that guy's been through. That was another one. So there was two fights that I was really interested in with John at heavyweight. Once he won the title, I was like, God, bring back Francis, please. I just don't see that happening. Sort out your difference. I wish I was running shit. I feel like I could have, me and him get along great. I just feel like, I don't know. [38:48] and Dana generally gets along with people you know like most fighters he gets along with but him and Francis is [38:56] It didn't work. I love the guy. I've never had the privilege of meeting him, but he just seems very sweet, like a big friendly giant outside of the cage. Yeah, exactly. Big friendly giant. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. We all know ultra-processed food isn't good for us as humans. Why would it be any different for our dogs? The Farmer's Dog is real, fresh food for dogs, and their recipe goes beyond just using good ingredients. It's all about how they use them.

[39:26] They always use real meat and vegetables and gently cook them to retain vital nutrients without any of the bad stuff that comes from ultra-processing. Their food is developed by a team of on-staff, board-certified vet nutritionists who make sure it's all complete and balanced. And it's backed by research and made to human-grade safety standards. It's portioned for your dog, making it easy to manage their weight. And they label each pack with your dog's name that lets you know that this food is truly packed for them. [39:56] They have 24-7 customer support, so you can chat with real dog people who care about your dog anytime. The Farmer's Dog says good ingredients matter, but the best recipes call for so much more. Head to thefarmersdog.com slash Rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. This offer is for new customers only. He's a fucking great guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm always saying from my experience with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [40:26] Keep them around. That's more important. It's extraordinary gem. Yeah. And you want to talk about sellability. You want to talk about marketability. What's more marketable than a giant man who destroys everyone? Yeah. He's the guy. Yeah. So true. Drove me nuts. I know. I think everybody. And I think that's added to. [40:48] people's frustrations with the tom aspinall fight not happening then after as well well that was not on the ufc's side or on tom's side that was all john yeah look john's a wizard he knows how to play all games and one of the games he plays i'm retiring no i'm back yeah now i'm hunting after you yeah it doesn't matter for him he's gonna get the same amount of money he's still john jones like it's all it's all mindfuckering like keep you guessing and meanwhile john's deadlifting every

[41:18] He's just so wild. But it's like that fight would have been amazing to see. But to me, the real... So that means it probably can still happen, no? I hope so. I genuinely hope so. You know they were talking about doing it at the White House? Yeah, yeah. And Dana's like, I can't trust John to show up and be fine. Which is fair. Which is fair. That's what you've got to say. There's been a few times that things went awry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. [41:40] However It would be great Do it on a card where you have 12 other fights That's what I say Who gives a fuck Let's see if it happens If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen That's true I would be like, let's go crazy Let's fucking go all in I guess what would happen is [41:54] that fight overshadows many fights. Uh-huh. So if it doesn't happen, even though the fights are amazing still... [42:01] People are like, "Uh-huh." It does, but so what? Yeah. I mean, you know, you get, I don't know who you would do. Ilio Toporia versus Justin Gaethje or something like that. Something crazy like that. Yeah. You'd have a few other fights. It depends on what happens this weekend with Pereira and Aliyah. It depends on what happens with Murab and Corey Sanhagen. Those are two very complicated fights. Beast. Yeah, very good fights. Murab is a beast, man. Beast. He's such a beast. Dude, he was talking to, I forgot who he was talking to. He did an interview. Oh, he was on Mighty Mouse's podcast. [42:31] No sauna. [42:33] No cold plunge. No stretching. Doesn't do any of that. Doesn't do any of that. Just no warm-up. Shows up. I just show up. Start to train. Just shows up. Shows up and fucking hits the gas. He... [42:46] stays up till 1, 2 o'clock in the morning,

[42:49] Just like his whole routine is totally contrary to everything that you've heard before. And this is how he weight cuts. I stop eating. He just stops eating. He stops eating on Tuesday. [43:04] He just stops eating, stops drinking water, keeps working out. The man's mind. [43:10] is a giant factor that I think a lot of people are looking at is cardio, which is an insane weapon. Of course, yeah, yeah. But the band's mind, the toughness, the mental toughness, that is Fort Knox. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ain't getting in there. You ain't getting in there. Remember that time, who was it? He was mounted. I forget who got him. But he got him in a mounted guillotine, and he didn't. I think it might have been Ricky Simone. Or it was somebody else had him, and he got out, and then he won the fight. But he was being choked unconscious for like two minutes. Yeah, yeah, and he's like, yeah. [43:40] Like kicking his legs and moving around. He's like, there's no quitting that guy. Fucking zero quit. You have to put him out. Zero quit. In the Marlon Marais fight, he was basically out on his feet in the first round. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he just came back and stopped him. He's a monster. He's a beast. He's a beast. And he keeps getting better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you feel like, oh, a guy like that is so good. Look how good he is. He's better than everybody. No, no, no, no, no. He's still getting better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he's not done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a project. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[44:10] to do. And how young is he now? He's like 34, I believe. So which is in that lightweight class. It's a little bit more of a problem in the heavier weight classes, but I don't see any. Like you said, his mind is a fucking steel trap. [44:24] But it's funny you say that because I don't really have... [44:26] structure [44:28] either so like I said the weight cut I do but that's because I came in with no understanding of weight cut and London she was like you do this you look so big for 170 how the fuck did you do that how much are you cutting when you went to 170 170 [44:41] So even like now, I'm massive now. Yeah, you look like, let me guess, 220? [44:46] What do you weigh right now? [44:49] Yeah, about 2.15. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I was going to do it in KG, so yeah. Right, okay. But yeah, yeah, yeah. We never adopted it. I know. So stupid. It's a way better system. But yeah, it's... [45:02] But I've never struggled to get... [45:04] Down though. [45:05] Because, again, I was just told, I guess it's ignorance as well, but I was just told to do these things. [45:10] And it's like, okay, you do it. What is it? When you start, like say you get a call from the UFC. Six to eight weeks out. Okay. So you're not going to accept any two-week fights? No. [45:19] Well, it depends on the fight. I'm always training. But middleweight maybe you would. Middleweight, yeah. Middleweight. You have taken some short notes. Yeah, for middleweight, which was the first one. [45:30] Was it the first one or the second one I did? The last fight. [45:33] uh, [45:35] Maybe. But I would take short notice depending on where I am. In training. In training. But even, I just like to have a rough idea, right? Even right now, it's like trying to get, and I'm like, I'm bugging people.

[45:46] Because I've come from a circuit where we fight weekends. Right. Every weekend we're somewhere. It keeps you sharp. Yeah. And then... [45:54] This is probably the most frustrating thing for me, obviously, starting in the Bellator. And you're training all the time. And then you have a fight. And then you're training. And a lot of my fights, I don't take too much damage. [46:07] So I'm like, I'm ready. [46:08] Now, like, give me a week off. [46:11] And I can come back. And then it's months and months. I'm like, who am I fighting? Do this. The problem is you're a hard sell. Yeah. You know, when people get a call. [46:21] Yeah. Flat-footed dude. Like, shit! I'm going to have to learn how to dance in six weeks. Fuck! And that's the thing. So I'm here. And I assumed, wrongly, that... [46:32] When I get to the UFC... [46:34] That... [46:35] is going to disperse everyone's going to be gunning for me like yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna show everybody that this guy is is is a can like he only fought people that weren't his level and it just is still the same i think and obviously the more i fight the less people are putting their hands up i think even um whitaker said which i respect to be fair he came out i don't know wait somebody sent me something but he had said like yeah i would be interested yeah he's just like in his career that's just a setback waiting to happen yeah it's not and his [47:05] very similar. Exactly, yeah. I'm a massive fan of his as well. I love his... Obviously, he can tie in the wrestling way better. [47:12] And just, yeah, I love his style. I do too. And you've got to realize that guy, he's been in it for a long time. He had two fucking wars with Yoel Romero when Yoel Romero was made out of metal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy's fun. He's still fighting. Still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's 48 years old, fucking people up, looking like he's 30. Mate, I'd swap bodies with him in a second. No, he wouldn't. Bro, when he was in here, he came in the studio.

[47:42] Yeah. [47:59] You have to be on my jeans. [48:03] Because he was talking about the system of, like, you get more food if you're at a higher caliber of athlete. Just to get more food. The athletes, yeah, man. [48:13] The athletes that are the lower caliber, they eat twice a day. In his caliber, he's eaten three times a day. He's like, so every day, every day they're coming for you. You have to be on my team. And I was like, oh, my God. And he has to look in his eyes, man. That motherfucker is fierce. We are soft in the West, bro. Oh, we're so soft in the West. We're so soft in the West. What the hell is this? I'm not a fan of communism. I don't believe it. But damn, it creates a fucking beast. [48:43] Dr. Karelin, I mean, I don't know if you get, there's two things you don't get that with. There's like substances with for sure taking place. And then there's also, there's a regiment that they have, both the Cuban system and the Russian system. Yeah. They had figured out the balance between unbelievable hard work, but technical ability and recovery. Yeah. They didn't go meathead style. Yeah. In America, we went meathead style and we burnt a lot of dudes out.

[49:13] the killers. But they probably could have made more killers like the Russians did if they did it more technically. It's the same. So again... [49:20] Shoots, they've been... Okay, they're the first MMA gym... [49:24] In the UK. [49:26] I think it's like 95%. [49:27] 97. I got a t-shirt. I got a London shoe fighters t-shirt from 2000. Yeah. Crazy. I couldn't find it. Oh, crazy. So like I said, they've been around. Yeah. I'm going to tell him. I'm going to tell him. [49:38] They've been around a long time and obviously they've fought... [49:41] I think they thought of every major competition... [49:44] that's ever been out. They've done boxing with the likes of David Hay, Derek Chisora now. Even Dylan White did a kickboxing fight with them. [49:54] You know, myself, Lee Murray, John Hathaway. Even, like, Carlos Romola was the first Czech guy before Yuri. [50:02] to be in the UFC. [50:04] That was them guys. They've done a lot, but they're the meathead style. Yeah. They are like... [50:11] Yeah, everybody will. Anything to produce Lee Murray. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you got that guy in your gym. It's a problem. Just the echoes of that guy's style will permeate through that gym for decades. That guy's just an angry man. He was an angry man. But at the same time, you needed somebody like, because my coaches are beasts, like you needed that kind of. [50:31] militant. [50:33] forced to [50:34] be able to manage that. [50:36] 100% And that's what my coaches They are They like People used to come to our gym And we're just like Yeah who's ready

[50:44] And if you don't do it, I'll do it myself. That's one thing I always respected about them. Even with the machines, the fitness machines that we had to do, the schools are crazy. [50:53] Like I see people in other gyms posting their scores. I'm like, is that it? And they're celebrating it. And I'm like, we're forced to do this. The hell is that? But he'd push you, but he'd also do it himself. Like he'd jump in a machine. Versa Climber. Yeah. Smoke it. Fight like five-fives back to back. And then running and this and that. And we're doing, we have to do all of it because he's doing it. And he's not doing it. He hasn't got to fight. That's the way you lead. Yeah. And he led that way. Especially with killers. Exactly. Yeah. That's the problem. They demand respect. Right. [51:23] And they have to know that you're real. Exactly. Yeah. Otherwise, you're just some pontificator on the sidelines with a fucking clipboard. Fuck off, bitch. Which is more nowadays. Like, I'm seeing a lot of, like, and to be fair, I'm a fan of a lot of these guys, like, the fighting nerds. And, again, I'm hearing that they had, I forget, like, a data analyst or something. Yeah, they did. And he does, like, this, you know, he studies this. And I think that's cool. Like, I feel like we should have... [51:48] like add elements of these things as well. [51:51] But obviously, I've just grown up by this iron, sharp iron. It does. It's undeniable. Iron sharpens iron. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's outliers. There's a guy who will come out of a gym with nobody, and he's a monster. There's just a few of those guys that exist in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for the most part, like, if you look at a gym like American Top Team, for example, look at how many animals have come out of that gym. So many. Pantoja, who I think does not get the credit he deserves. I think Pantoja is one of the greatest ever. Fucking guy's a monster.

[52:21] came over from Ryzen and he just like ragdolled him. Like he had no business. And then the Kaikawa France rematch, you see the difference between when they first fought and now the difference between a dominant all-time world champion. [52:37] People, like when he's on a card, people don't freak out. I'm like, God damn it. Just because he's 125 pounds. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, [52:51] This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. Just set the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. [53:21] Fire, flavor, and doing things right. Check out Traeger Grills. [53:26] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer means fun and making memories, but it can also feel like you're in survivor mode with packed schedules, keeping the kids entertained, and chaotic routines. That's not so fun. You've got to make sure that you're taking care of you, and therapy can help with that. From setting boundaries to making a space to recharge, it can help make your summer more balanced and enjoyable.

[53:56] online. You'll be matched based on your needs and can switch any time if it's not the right fit. With millions of clients worldwide, people are finding the support they need with BetterHelp. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find guidance in therapy. Visit betterhelp.com to get started. That's betterhelp.com. [54:21] Get that shit out of your head. You're watching one of the greatest ever. But that's the thing. It's the marketability of... [54:26] People, this is what I... [54:28] knew I had to get right as well. Yes. [54:31] And a lot of... I say that to my teammates as well. I'm like... [54:34] Do you know how you're going to market yourself? You know, if I beat people up, it's like it doesn't always just unfortunately you should, but it doesn't. [54:41] That's not what's going to... [54:43] get you if i have to as a promotion uh owner and the person managing everything i'm either going to pick you that's beating everybody but nobody cares about or this guy that's you know it's pretty decent but everyone's making noise about gonna pick that guy so you need to be able to market yourself and i'd [55:01] I knew that from the jump, and this is before really social media was massive, massive is a thing. [55:07] But... [55:08] I said to myself, okay, I need to... [55:11] Looking, how am I going to market myself? Because we don't have that much time [55:15] like on the mic. [55:16] the interviews at the time, I don't feel like people got the recognition. People just cared about the fight. They just wanted to watch the fight. They didn't care what you said beforehand. Right. Unless you're arguing or shouting, you know, there's beef. Unless you grab that mic and go crazy. Yeah. You got to go crazy. Chelsun was the first guy to figure that out. Yeah, he was. He figured it out before anybody. He's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anderson Silva, you absolutely suck. He's the best fighter. But he's still good. This is why he's on the mic now. Yes, but it was perfect. He's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was perfect.

[55:46] Yes. [55:46] But there was balance with that. He's the king. For me, there's perfect balance. Like, it wasn't too far. Right, right, right. It was exactly what you wanted. Right. Exactly what you need to market a fight and to promote himself. Yes. Yes, I agree with you. [55:59] But... [56:00] Well, yeah, again, it's weird, though, because... [56:03] I think authenticity is important when you do that as well, though. And Conor McGregor kind of is the next person for me, [56:09] that's kind of delivered. [56:10] that oh 100 he took it to a whole nother level a whole nother level every time this guy's on the mic he'll say one line and i'm like t-shirts easy how about what jeremy stevens is yelling at him you can't beat this guy i don't i'm just like why did you even open your mouth bro it's so funny but you and you need to be able to do that like i before i even had my first fight i would [56:38] I spent... [56:39] hours I was a big WWE fan [56:42] Thank you. [56:43] and I felt like the rock, you know, Dwayne Johnson for all, [56:47] out of all of them, was the best at marketing himself. He had the... [56:51] the crowd in the palm of his hands, every word that he said. And it's simple sayings. [56:57] And I was like, yeah, I studied this, studied this. I was like, okay. [57:00] And even like his stances, he'd come up, like jump on the ropes and put his hand up and just stand there. Look around. You know what I mean? Like he just demanded eyes. So again, I just came to, okay, what could I do? So I was like, okay. [57:14] you know, venom, you know, snake, I relate to a snake, okay, I was like,

[57:18] Okay, yeah, let me let me do this. Okay, okay, okay, that's check. I got a stance that I can do. Okay, I need a saying. Okay, what can I say? [57:28] Because again, I used to listen to people on after fights and I didn't hear anything they said. [57:33] They're like, "Yeah, I beat that guy." And I'm like, "Here, thank you for my sponsors." [57:41] Who? Who were your sponsors? Didn't hear anything, so I'm like, it has to be... [57:47] like concise, I have to say specific words and just, [57:49] I write this stuff down. Again, I speak to my team. It's like, bro, what are you guys doing? You need to do this kind of stuff and understand that this is a part of your game. You've got five seconds after the fight on the mic. [57:59] if that what are you what are you going to say what message is going to land what is going to make you memorable and i do things on my walk-ins as well [58:09] I need people to remember They're watching 16 fights on the night Why do they remember me? Yes my style is exciting That's cool There's this weird guy He does some weird stuff with his arms And he's quite cool [58:20] but they're not going to remember my name. I need other things to keep them coming back. [58:23] Oh, there's this guy in the way, and he stood above this guy, he put his snake hand up. Oh, that's the same guy that did the dance, because now you're getting it from different places. That's the guy that threw the Pokeball. Oh, my... [58:33] What's his name? What's his name? The more times you keep hitting them with different things... [58:38] the more times they're more likely to really buy into you. [58:42] I think this is why I was able to create a big enough brand before even touching the UFC. [58:48] just because I paid attention to that kind of thing. You were one of the first guys to make a name for yourself in Bellator.

[58:55] Because Bellator, it was hard to break out. There were some wild fights in Bellator that never got recognized. At all, yeah, yeah. How about the Eddie Alvarez, Michael Chandler fights? Beast. Fucking crazy fights. And I feel like those guys left a lot of who they are there. In there, yeah, unfortunately. We got them kind of after them. And Chandler's still... [59:15] remarkably durable, but that's just a discipline thing and a hard work thing. Yeah, I think he's just accustomed to, like you said, he's trained a certain way his whole life. He's always going to have that kind of athleticism. But he's 38 now. I wish he had not been in Bellator. Look, I'm all for competition. I think competition's important. I don't think there should be a monopoly in the MMA business. I think it's bad for the athletes. I love the fact that PFL overpays people. Give them a million dollars to everybody. [59:45] Get a million dollars. Everybody gets a car. You get a car? I wish there was more organizations. I hope One FC succeeds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does help. That helped me as well, even in my negotiation. Fucking everything. Yeah. However. Yeah. [59:59] There's a caliber of athlete that I feel like should only be in the UFC. Yeah, yeah. And you're one of those guys. Thank you. I appreciate that. There's a caliber of athlete where, like, I want to see how good they really are. [1:00:13] Some guy like Patchy Mitch. Patchy Mitch is a beast. He's a bad motherfucker. But so is Mario Bautista. Mario Bautista had the perfect game plan to fuck up his party. [1:00:24] That dude, when he was in Bellator, was of that caliber. I was like, I want to see him over here, man. I personally, and obviously because I've experienced it,

[1:00:33] For me... [1:00:35] The first time I got... [1:00:37] nervous in an MMA fight was my first fight. In the UFC? No, my first fight ever. [1:00:43] And then after that, [1:00:46] I was like, oh yeah, this is the same as when I was fighting the kickboxing. I'm cool. I didn't get the nerves again. The first time again since then... [1:00:53] was the second fight in the UFC against Ian Garry. [1:00:58] Now, [1:00:59] The first fight, I don't know why, I just... [1:01:02] I don't know what it was. [1:01:04] But I was quite relaxed. [1:01:06] And then the second fight, I was like, oh, it's something, a reality hit me of like, oh, you're in the UFC. The people are going to demand a certain... [1:01:13] thing from you and you've got a reputation of before of the knockouts of the center of the celebrations of the walk-ins of the this or the that [1:01:19] And then I just let that put weight on me. Really? Yeah, yeah. That's crazy that it was the second fight. I can't even explain as to why it was the second fight and not the first one. [1:01:30] And then even the third fight, I still had that. [1:01:34] kind of [1:01:35] Amen. [1:01:37] I'm not performing [1:01:39] The way I want... [1:01:39] and [1:01:41] I felt like I'm eager to impress. And I never felt like that in Bellator. [1:01:46] At the UFC, I'm like, I'm trying my best. I literally have to sit. Yeah, it's weird. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. Same thing. Cage, cameras, people. Same thing. Same thing. [1:01:55] But just the magnitude of it. [1:01:57] I don't know. I'm guessing. It's what we all grew up with. It's what everyone grows up with. It's like, this is where, like I said, there was always question marks around my name.

[1:02:07] jump knees and this and that. Always question marks around my name still. [1:02:12] But then now I'm here, it's like, oh, actually, I can... [1:02:15] These guys can... [1:02:17] Respect me now. Actually respect me now because I'm here. [1:02:20] And then I was just trying too hard, trying too hard, trying too hard. The last fight was the first time I was like... [1:02:26] you're back i'm back and this is why i just keep getting me back in the cage because i swear to you this that i got i'm back to where i used to be and how i used to feel it's just an issue of getting guys that are willing to fight you that are of a certain caliber exactly exactly because you know obviously right now you're pretty big so for you to get down to 170 again would be a real problem are you committed to 185 or are you no no i open either one i want 170 i can see a clear [1:02:56] And she's like... [1:02:57] Look, oh, let me fight. It was Morales. Morales. [1:03:01] And I was like, look, another undefeated guy Perfect fight, like he's a beast I'm ready, let me take him And I said, what I could do after that is In like December, I think I said No, March next year [1:03:15] I was like, yeah, give me that for November. March next year... [1:03:19] usually come back to the UK. Let me fight the winner of, um, Leon Edwards and Prattas. I was like, another great fight there. Yeah. And then you've got July card, [1:03:30] obviously everyone's going to put their hand up to be on that but i said if you guys want me to be on that again i'll fight for whoever you want and in that top range pick i don't care who it is pick pick somebody i'll fight them and then i want a title shot or you give me the title there

[1:03:43] Like, yeah. [1:03:44] But I'm like, I can see a clear path. [1:03:47] to what I want. [1:03:49] And it's just everything seems slow. [1:03:52] which, like I said, I didn't expect... [1:03:55] coming from [1:03:57] to the UFC. I think there's just too many athletes. There is a lot. I think they have on... [1:04:04] contract [1:04:05] more than 500... [1:04:07] Tom. [1:04:08] How many athletes does the UFC have under contract? [1:04:12] Throw that into... But then also, they're... I think... [1:04:16] Obviously, I'm managed by Paradigm with Audi. And he said he feels like the Paramount deal is they having to integrate that now as well. [1:04:26] And I'm like, I didn't think about that. But every time Bellator, because Bellator kept getting new partnerships, it did slow things down a little bit. Oh, yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, that doesn't start until January. But obviously they're sorting out contracts and things from now. [1:04:42] And then they obviously have to try and align the shows and, [1:04:45] I'm guessing. Obviously, I don't know, but I'm just saying it just feels... [1:04:48] even slower than before. And I'm like, that sucks. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I just want to be back out there. I don't care. Just, and this is why I'm happy to take 674. [1:04:59] Wow. [1:05:01] 674 fighters under contract. And they don't have fights every week. They have fights almost every week, but not every week. [1:05:08] That, I mean, just think about that. So you have 52 weeks. You have all these fighters. Fighters want to fight multiple times a year. I appreciate that, but I'm MVP, man. Let's go. I am with you. I'm with you. I always say that I wish I was a matchmaker, but I don't because it's the hardest job. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. I used to talk to Joe Silva back in the day when he did it. He fucking hated it. Dealing with everybody and managers and people flake out and fail drug tests. I'm like, God damn it.

[1:05:34] And these guys, what they're doing right now is very difficult because what – [1:05:39] what Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby are dealing with is the volume is so much greater. Yeah. [1:05:45] And there's so many more really good guys. [1:05:48] Like in almost every division, like guys are coming in from the contender series. That guy looks like a world championship caliber fighter. Talented. Talents off the charts right now. And it's because they get to watch. Yeah. You know, these are the kids that are growing up watching Anderson Silva. They're growing up watching John Jones' first fight. They're growing up watching the early Chuck Liddell fights. And it's normal. It's totally different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when they're play fighting with their friends, they're in stances that look right. You know? They know what they're doing. [1:06:18] of every submission and this is so true. - They're calf kicking each other in the fucking schoolyard. It's a totally different world. - Very true. - And those kids are gonna grow up, and that's gonna be integrated into their neuromuscular system. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. And they're gonna learn, there's guys coming along that are like, [1:06:34] Elite black belt level jiu-jitsu. Elite stand-up. Elite wrestling. Takedown defense. Cardio off the charts. And they're 22. And you're like, this is nuts. Now it's just about whether you can compete. Whether you can pull it off and keep your head together on fighting games. Which is, again, I think is... [1:06:53] Something that people don't speak about enough. Listen, it's... [1:06:57] Aaron Pico is as talented as they come, right? That dude is a fucking vicious boxer, incredible wrestling, gold chip prospect from the very...

[1:07:06] But Lerone Murphy is another guy. I was saying before that, this is the guy that's not getting the credit he deserves. Because you've got all these loud killers at 145. But you've got this one dude that does everything perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's beating everybody. He's beating everything. Etching away. And he doesn't take damage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's clever. And he's slick. And he does things. And every technique is perfect. Absolutely beast. There's no fat on anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no wild winging punches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's tight. Clean. [1:07:36] Bobo was a work of art. [1:07:38] He just knew Aaron Pico's a train. He's come. Bang! [1:07:42] That was crazy. I was out there. But that's the difference between someone who can compete at the highest level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's accustomed to it. Right. It's the knowing when to hit the gas and when not to. Pico is just all gas, no brakes. Yeah, go on. Like you said, it's similar to Michael Chandler again. Yes. Just like in that rage mode all the time. All gas, no brakes. Yeah. You need to take your time. But that's a wrestler thing too. They always want to break people. Because in wrestling, you can do that. You can have that mentality where you're constantly hitting the gas. Because you're not going to get knocked out with a flying knee. Yeah, yeah, true. [1:08:12] True, true. Changes. Yeah, because you get that. That's how you compete. You get this mindset of I'm going to fucking dominate. I know what I did in training for this. My gas tank's off the charts. My aggression's off the charts. I'm a killer. I'm going to dominate. I'm moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The problem is with a guy like Lerone is like, you think he's backing up. He's coming forward. Oh, yeah. That was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The timing. It was just like, oh. But Pico even stepped right into the elbow. It was ruthless. It made it ten times.

[1:08:42] - That sounds worse. - Ruthless. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's my thing. The car crash effect when you create those collision moments. - So for a guy like Lerone, who's not a big marketing guy, not a big like, doesn't say wild shit on the microphone, just steady professional, does his job. He needs to do that, right? He needs like this spectacular thing where all of a sudden everybody goes, he, [1:09:03] Needs to fight Alexander Volkanovsky. And that looks like that's what's going to happen now because of that one performance. Which is, I'm so happy for him. Me too. He's a cool guy, man. I'm so happy for him. But this is why I tell people, if he had just a little bit of chat. [1:09:16] A little bit of show your personality or something. Just give me something else. You have that, though. No, but you know what it is? I always say, like, everyone... [1:09:24] Like, Demetrius Johnson, for me, is one of the greatest. Of all time. All time. Of all time. Another underappreciated guy because he's too small. Because of his size, yeah. Yeah. [1:09:35] I feel like [1:09:37] Undappreciated because... [1:09:38] You can't market him in the exact same way as you'd market Conor McGregor or somebody else like that. [1:09:45] But he's a gamer. [1:09:46] I'm like, shed a light on. There's a massive, massive community of gaming. That industry is awesome. [1:09:53] billion dollars deep. Market this guy because he goes back home and he's just like... Yeah, he's one of them. He's one of those guys. So... [1:10:00] But again, we didn't see, I don't feel like we saw any of that until afterwards when he was kind of like doing his own thing. Right. Now obviously doing a lot of his YouTube time. I'm happy. I'm so happy that he's... [1:10:09] It was kind of when he went to one that he started doing more of the game and stuff online. No, he had been doing it, though. He had been doing it in the UFC as well? He had been doing it, yeah. But again, it's just more, I guess... They didn't capitalize. Yeah, that's what I mean. I think certain people, you have to... What is your thing? Not everybody is just the fighting. They have things to kind of release...

[1:10:29] wind down and you know what I mean? Yeah. [1:10:32] find that out he's killing everybody anyway so how else can we market instead of being like ah can't market him he doesn't talk he doesn't do say anything there must be something there there has to be something else there we could look into well it's it's interesting because some guys their personality is no personality [1:10:48] Like Pereira. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His personality is stone face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just stone face, destroyer, death machine. Here he comes, Amazon warrior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like literal, actual Amazon warrior. Yeah. Like not a faker. His fucking family comes from a tribe in Amazon. 100%. [1:11:05] But then that's what he markets, though. Yeah. I guess that's what they market. But it was because of. No, but he markets that as well. He markets it. He walks out. That walkout. Oh, yeah. That's true. Bro, I do it myself. When he's walking out, I'm just waiting for him. I'm like. [1:11:18] That's true. And that's what I mean, though. I mean, like, that's. You're selling your story with just something so simple. That's actually a very good point that I didn't even think of. Yeah. His walkout. His walkout. His walkout is maybe the best in the sport. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to say. And that music. Yeah. The jungle music behind him. [1:11:35] just a walk just this amazon warrior and it's simple and [1:11:41] Everyone can relate to it. Oh, yeah. It's consistent. So I'm always going to, oh, that's the guy. And you see kids in the audience throw the one-two. Yeah, they do it. And like I said, because I'm a big wrestling fan, I see... [1:11:52] It's those moments that everybody will remember and everybody will do. [1:11:56] Right, when Stylebender came into The Undertaker. Oh, beast. But that's what I'm trying to say. It's those kind of things that people just don't.

[1:12:05] Yeah. And I'm talking the fighters themselves. Obviously, I feel the UFC can do their bit as well. But technically, you're already on the platform that's going to show you to everybody. So then it's your job to... [1:12:14] Figure it out as well. Another aspect of the game. Yeah. Like strength and conditioning. Exactly. All these different things. Exactly. Just think about it. You're a professional. Figure out how to market yourself. Yeah. You are the product. The problem is, though, it does lead to cringe moments. Of course. Just tell everybody it's your personality. And some guys try it. It's like, yikes. Shit. [1:12:36] You got to take a risk. You got to take the risk. [1:12:40] If it goes well, it goes well. Yeah. It goes well. [1:12:44] As you said about Alex Perra, technically we wouldn't care if he walked out of that and got knocked out. We wouldn't give a shit. Yeah. But he's a killer. Yeah. [1:12:51] That fight this weekend is very, very interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, so here's the downside to fighting all the time. Fighting all the time with your style is a very different thing because you take so little damage, which is another huge element. Like, I kind of would tell people that if you have a kid and your kid wants to learn martial arts and they want to eventually be an MMA fighter, I would say two things. [1:13:21] Banding of grappling, at least you have a base from the time you're real little. Exactly, yeah, yeah. That should be your base. Yeah, yeah. Because it's the most important aspect of the fight. If you can't grapple, a guy can take you down and he can hold you down. You can't do shit about it. [1:13:33] Number two... [1:13:34] Learn how to point fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Learn how to point fight. Learn distance control. There's a different thing that you guys are doing. If you go, like, people think of Billy Banks as Taibo. You've got to go back and watch Billy Banks when he was a fucking karate wizard, dude. Yes, exactly. He was a wizard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was hitting people where you couldn't hit him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, all the old school guys were all, like, light on the feet, bladed style. And they had this leap in ability that if you're used to a guy standing in front of, it's a giant problem.

[1:14:04] timing to solve it you could go two three rounds deep before you start actually landing exactly you can't do anything to them it's a giant problem and i would say you want to be the person giving the other person that problem exactly then you can learn all the other stuff too learn your your boxing fundamentals and your tie and knees and elbows but but if they're nowhere near you and you can hit them you can close that gap exactly you have a blitz so i mean understanding that [1:14:34] changed the game. Yes, there's so much movement in that style of fighting. [1:14:53] sink your teeth into them, Gold Belly will ship them to you anywhere. [1:14:59] And you've heard me talk about Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles from L.A. Man, now you don't have to sit in L.A. traffic to get some of that chicken. Just order on Gold Belly. So ship, Dad, something awesome from the most iconic restaurants across the USA. Go to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with the promo code ROGAN. That's goldbelly.com, promo code ROGAN. This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. [1:15:29] the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself.

[1:15:56] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details. [1:16:22] It's lost when people are plotting and just teeping each other in the stomach and kicking their legs. But it's funny. People always used to go on about me and Wonderboy Thompson fighting. And I'd always say, like, it won't be as exciting as you think. [1:16:36] For us, like me and him, there'll be moments where we're bouncing and faking and we'll laugh at each other because we saw what would have happened if one of us went. But the crowd's like, the fuck is going on? Fight? The fuck are you guys doing? Smiling at each other. Like, they don't get the fight that's going on. [1:16:53] Right. [1:16:54] In that moment, honestly, it's not as exciting. Two pluses don't always give you that plus. Not always. But you still want to see it. Of course. People always want to just... It's also like... [1:17:04] Fighting... [1:17:05] doesn't have to always be ultimate excitement you have to like that's why i say no stand-ups ever when a guy takes a guy down that person on the bottom does not want to be on the bottom they want to be up if they can't get up tough shit it's only five rounds every fight starts stands it up yeah which is a giant advantage for a striker yeah because otherwise they wouldn't be able to get themselves up yeah so none of that see it's got it's got to be pure it's got to be

[1:17:35] won only because the rules set it up for him to get to a better position. I agree. The only thing that I find slightly frustrating... [1:17:43] in those inner element is [1:17:46] I don't mind the wrestling. I think wrestling is a beautiful art and is, like you said, one of the most important arts. [1:17:52] to dictate where you want the fight to go. [1:17:55] But... [1:17:56] If you're taking me down, [1:17:59] Tried to kill me. [1:18:00] I agree. Try to finish the fight. Don't just take me down on this... [1:18:04] I agree. I've had people like grabbing my legs and looking at the clock. Here's the thing. If they're not good enough to kill you. Yeah. Right. What if they're good enough to take you down and hold you down, but then they just have to be real defensive afterwards. Right. [1:18:16] And they'll throw a little pity pass. I know. I know. That's the only element that I just. But here's the thing. They're not good enough to do more. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. [1:18:24] But you must be, though. Maybe not. Uh-uh. [1:18:27] Maybe not. [1:18:28] Maybe only good enough like you're so good and they're just good enough to hold you down. But if they've reined up and started range and then you fucking framed off, you got the half guard, you got back up to your feet. All of a sudden we're dealing with this shit again. But if you just stay on top and don't take any chances, now you can't do shit. [1:18:48] Yeah, I agree. It's boring as fuck. And it's not for me. It's not even a boring element of it. Like I still enjoyed that aspect. If I was watching, I only enjoyed that aspect because I know what I'm looking at now. Like I'm like, oh, he's got, okay, he's got, he's grabbed his wrist there. Okay. I can see what he's trying to work to. Okay. No, you didn't get it. Okay. I can, I'm still in the fight. Whereas some people, I guess the people, if you don't get into grappling, you're not going to know what's happening other than they're just lying there. So I get it for them.

[1:19:12] But for me still, it's just like the aim of this game. [1:19:15] is for me to beat you and i mean like take knock you out put you to sleep so i'm trying to show you that i am the stronger man [1:19:22] as a warrior [1:19:24] And that's not by holding you. [1:19:26] That's not about holding you down. Holding you down to get you to position to land his elbow and hold you down to get you to position to land his... Yeah, but... [1:19:33] Just to... [1:19:34] I completely agree. [1:19:36] However, [1:19:38] Even though I'm a fan of yours, if a wrestler who had that boring style took you down and held you down for three rounds and won a decision, I'd be like, damn, he did it. He did it because he can't do it any other way. If he can't stand up with you, he's going to get fucked up, and he can take you down any time. Why would he ever let you up? And if losing position is dangerous, so if you're very explosive and you're very good at grappling, you're very good on the bottom, you've gotten submissions off the bottom. [1:20:08] is gone and he just wants to clinch and hold on and maintain position and he maintains position with this kind of shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he's on top and he's doing this kind of shit. [1:20:16] Just little movements like he's still getting away with that. Yeah, I agree. I just because that might be his only pat right for you. But the thing is, he's not good enough. Yeah. Where then you have guys like Khabib. [1:20:30] Khabib gets you down. You're getting fucked up. You're getting fucked up constantly. Everybody loves that. He's talking to you. He's creating a space by still pinning you. He's crushing your legs in between his legs, and he's fucking way on you. That I can appreciate all day every day. I can too, but some guys aren't good enough. They're still fighting. Right? They're in there. They're not good enough. There's guys at a world-class level that are not going to be world champions, but they might be able to beat a guy who could be a world champion.

[1:21:00] do that thing. Yeah, it just... It sucks. I know, I know. But it's real. It's hard to class you as a world championship player. [1:21:06] Fighter. [1:21:07] then okay let's talk about hamzat then yeah yeah drink a stuple c is a perfect example of that you got a that was a grappler dominated the fight without very with very little damage yeah in when i dominated it to the point where you're you're in the worst position you could be in in mma you're in a crucifix over and over again every round [1:21:28] Over and over again. [1:21:30] And you can't do shit about it. You let him just. You can't do shit about it. But so do you think that is he's worried about his him exploding? Because in my head, I'm like. [1:21:40] The fight ends if I elbow the shit out of you right now. I think he's worried about the chaos, and Drick is getting back to his feet. And they wanted to just win. This is the whole thing. Because he came back to his corner, apparently. And this was told to me secondhand, but I'm pretty sure it's true. Yeah. By a reliable source. That he was saying, can I box now? I was like, no. Okay. No, you're not fucking box. His team was like, take him down. He can't. Look, if you got that clear of a dominance. No. [1:22:06] That I still agree with, though. As the coach is saying, no, take him down. But I'm saying once you are in that position. Smash. Smash. Your whole thing is smash. Yeah. Smash the shit out. What the hell? I think they just wanted that win no matter what. You know what I mean? Because it's such a big deal. Hamzat finally got a shot at the title. What is the clearest, most intelligent? You're betting a billion dollars in this fight. What's the best way to victory? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking just take him down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:22:36] Take him down anytime you want to. Hold him down. Punch him a few times. Make sure you're in dominant positions so you're not going to get stood back up. If the referee starts talking to you and telling you, start throwing a little bit of this. Do a little bit of that. Fake a submission. Don't throw all your gas into it. Do whatever the fuck you got to do, but get that goddamn title. Yeah. Right? And then there's going to be some guys that he can't do that to. Yeah, yeah. And that's where things get interesting. Yeah, yeah. Who would you say that is, though? Because his wrestling style is just... [1:23:06] crazy. [1:23:08] So Brandon Schaub had been to his training camp. Okay. And he called me up. He goes, bro, we got to talk. He goes, I just got back watching Hamza train. He goes, I've never seen anything like that in my fucking life. He's like, dude, what I'm telling you, he's mopping the floor with like Division I All-Americans, world-class grapplers, jujitsu black belts. He goes, he's mopping the floor with people. He goes, it's nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, they asked me if I wanted to spar with him. Schaub goes, fuck you. [1:23:38] Fuck you. I'm not going in there. He goes, he was mauling people on the ground. He goes, I've never seen anything like it. [1:23:47] He goes, it was crazy. He goes, he's so high level. Yeah, I had the privilege of going to the gym in Dubai and training alongside him. And I saw it for myself. And it's... [1:23:59] Yeah, I was like... It's a shocking level of grappling. Yeah. And when you can achieve that shocking level of grappling on world-class MMA fighters, why wouldn't you do it? This is just my thing, my take on it. Like, if you just want to win and make as much money as possible and keep doing that, I think you should finish, guys, whenever you can. Yeah. But if you don't think you can and the path to victory is grappling, this is still a sport. Yeah, fair. If it wasn't a sport, there'd still be headbutts. Yeah. There'd still be all the... Stamps and... Yeah.

[1:24:29] that used to be you'd still be able to wear shoes who gives a fuck yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's a sport [1:24:35] So if it's a sport, we've got some rules. I just don't think... [1:24:38] I don't think there's anything wrong with winning by the rules. It's not my favorite style. My favorite style is either a knockout artist or a submission artist. I like a guy who just finishes everything. Yeah, Olivero when he was in his prime. When he was in his prime. Catching triangles and Darces. Oh, my God. He was a monster. He was so good. Those guys, like when you watch a guy who's like an elite world-class submission artist and the fight goes to the ground, it's just a totally different thing. [1:25:05] You know, you're in real, like Fabrizio Verdum when he was in his prime, when he caught Fedor with that triangle. Bro, that's... Catching Fedor with a triangle is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy, yeah. Just, if you know how explosive that guy is and how fast he is and strong enough, what a great grappler he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fabrizio Verdum's another guy who doesn't get his due. Yeah, yeah. When you think about all-time goats, you think about Noguera, you think about Fedor, and you think about Minotauro. And Fabrizio Verdum tapped them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He tapped all the greats. [1:25:35] All of them. Tapped them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:25:38] Tapped them. All the greats. Didn't just win by a decision. Yeah, didn't just hold them. Tapped Fedor when Fedor was Fedor. People were like, whoa, that's crazy. [1:25:51] Fatal's a beast. Bro, he was a monster. Stoic warrior from Russia. No expression. Yeah, yeah. In his market. He's the earliest, the first of his time.

[1:26:01] Way ahead of his time. Fast of his time. Way ahead of his time. His ability to catch submissions off his back with lightning speed. He had a lightning fast armbar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:26:11] and power on the feet yeah but he walked down cro-cop yeah it's crazy crazy with stand-up yeah cro-cop's head kicks were insane every kick every kick but like fedor was blocking them so intelligently too he was using that high block yeah yeah way up like that to catch that left kick and he caught it they caught it shin to shin many times [1:26:34] It was that was a crazy fight, but Fedor in his prime was so good, man, because he was the first guy other than Minotauro Minotauro. But he was more dangerous on the feet than Minotauro. But Minotauro on the ground was like one of the first guys, like super dangerous off his back. Yeah. Yeah. Just super, super lethal guard. Like when he beat Bob Sapp. [1:26:53] That was the nuttiest fight in the history of MMA. That was the nuttiest. Bob Sapp was 350 pounds with abs. I was going to say, he's kind of like your... [1:27:02] your [1:27:04] In Garni nowadays. But way bigger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way bigger, but not as skilled. Yeah, no, no. Different. He's gotten, yeah, Francis' improvement. [1:27:13] Because in his earlier stages, I was just like, yeah, he's got power, but he's technically like... Francis basically beat Tyson Fury in a boxing match. Crazy, right? Basically beat him because I scored it for him. I scored it for him 100%. They could not let that happen. He dropped Tyson Fury with a left hook and then danced in front of him. I mean, that's skill.

[1:27:34] I mean, he wasn't ready for Anthony Joshua because Anthony Joshua – [1:27:37] was a different thing. Yeah. Like it's just, he's got more one shot knockout power. It was a bad game plan as well though. I don't know if he likes to switch in. [1:27:46] But again, this is where the boxing is. If you don't have that kind of... [1:27:50] intellect in the boxing, that footwork and foot positioning [1:27:54] is put your foot on one side, you're going to get killed. You're putting your foot on the other side. You're safe. You can kind of manage the power and see the punches coming. But he kept switching stances by just leaving himself in just the wrong positions. Yeah, he wasn't ready for a guy like Joshua. He wasn't ready. There was a lot of hype off the Fury fight. Also, Joshua got to watch him box in the Fury fight and see some patterns. Fury, I think, probably took him lightly. Yes, I think so. It's one of the greatest of all time. This guy's never had a boxing match. At the beginning of the fight, [1:28:24] to school. Like, oh, really? And then he probably got stunned. He just got stunned and that was it. He's now working. You talk to any fighter, they will tell you the worst times of their life is when they thought that a guy was nothing. Yeah. And then in the middle of the fight, they realized, oh, my God, I'm losing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They took a guy lightly and they didn't get up for the fight. Yeah. And then they went in there and that dude was fired up and ready to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:28:43] You know, you got this thing. You can't take anybody lightly though. No. [1:28:47] Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, another perfect example. Yeah, 100% no. No one thought. This guy was partying every day. Yeah, exactly. He did not take it seriously at all. He did not take it seriously at all. [1:28:57] You got a big respect for Buster Douglas on that one, though. Oh, my God. It was one of the greatest performances of any heavyweight title fight ever. To want to walk in and do that as well. The fact that that guy could do that the whole time but only did it against Mike Tyson is nuts.

[1:29:11] Because he was one of those guys, and we all know them, that is super talented. [1:29:15] and just never realizes their full potential. Like, you know guys in the gym, you'd see them spar and train. I talk about this all the time. I've had so many people. [1:29:23] obviously I've got to see over the years that are, [1:29:26] talented and again it's the same thing but can you do it when it counts can you do it when the lights are on can you do it when there's pressure and it means something to you that's you your friends your family money yeah [1:29:35] can you still do it? Yeah. That's when it counts but I've seen guys that are... There's a guy actually and I always talk about him just because he was super unique and weirdly enough he got to the UFC on a short stint. Galore Bufondo. I don't know if you ever remember him. He only had two fights but he fought [1:29:53] Charlie Ward [1:29:55] And I call it Hadouken. He just grabbed him and threw his head into the floor. Oh, jeez. And it was a KO. He actually never got the bonus for that. I don't know how he didn't because I've never seen anybody just... [1:30:08] throw someone's head down you need to watch it oh but uh boom [1:30:15] There you go. [1:30:15] and if you keep it going and you see how he finishes look he's like wow that dude landed hard and if you see the finish this is how athletic this guy was just watch [1:30:28] Light work. Just... [1:30:30] Just landing a little spider stance. Yeah, perfect landing. Now, I had to deal with this. [1:30:35] Every day. Yeah. And that was nothing. He's... [1:30:40] Super explosive. But again, he's a striker. Very weird striker. Like, kicks are like his hands. He can... For ages, yeah? I was sparring him one time, and me and him... Like, I'm the guy with him. When he steps in, my eyes do this. And I'm like, okay, I have to make sure I'm...

[1:30:58] A kick will come from anywhere. [1:31:01] And we're sparring and going back and forth. [1:31:04] I'm in my element [1:31:05] And... [1:31:07] everything slows down for me. [1:31:09] And I see his head drop down. [1:31:13] And [1:31:14] Alarm bells are going off And I'm like [1:31:17] He doesn't. [1:31:18] He doesn't shoot. [1:31:19] He doesn't. [1:31:20] Go for takedowns. [1:31:22] but i'm feeling alarm bells going on like something's gone wrong i don't know why this felt this slow [1:31:27] Something is wrong. [1:31:29] And I've never done this block in my life. [1:31:32] And I went like this. [1:31:33] Thank you. [1:31:35] X block. [1:31:36] I've never done this in my life. Never been taught this. My body said, throw your hands. He did that. [1:31:42] Um. [1:31:43] Did a cartwheel kick. [1:31:45] front flip oh geez yeah landed on his foot and axe kicked me if i didn't do that i'd be sitting here in two right now talking to you about the story that i once used to do mma and this guy split me in half [1:32:00] And he's front flip axe kick. He's in a front flip axe kick. That's crazy. On his Instagram, I don't know if you'll find it, but on his Instagram, there's clips of him doing it on a bag. And he literally flips... [1:32:11] Lanzo Nesfo. [1:32:13] hits the bag and he's just standing but he did it I've blocked it [1:32:17] Now, even that alone, because I've now blocked it, you should fall off balance. [1:32:21] He took his foot off and carried on sparring [1:32:24] Everyone in their gym was like, what the fuck was that? What the hell was that? I never even thought anyone could do that. He's another person that,

[1:32:34] in [1:32:35] the cage he never showed this stuff i've seen him someone on a single leg and he's run up the cage and slipped up the single leg and kicked off the cage and landed behind the person because i've [1:32:46] always when I talk about this, it sounds like I'm exaggerating. [1:32:49] He used to do stuff that I've met. It's only in games. [1:32:54] And this is why everyone needs to love him. Just watching him do that flip, I believe every word you're saying. [1:32:57] Because that was crazy. The landing was crazy. Yeah, like it was a feather. It was not like... [1:33:02] No, he landed soft on one knee. [1:33:09] was insane but just never showed it [1:33:11] Wow. Is he retired? Yeah, he teaches and stuff now, but he just... [1:33:17] And it's a shame, man. He was a fun character. Like I said, an amazing person to train with because he made me better. [1:33:23] because he's and he's got the few people that in the gym that could actually kick me in the head [1:33:27] Well... [1:33:29] and catch me because I usually I'm good at seeing I got good eyes and he's just yeah it was just something else crazy that you knew it like you had intuition I don't know what happened but as I said if you don't do this you're going to die today wow that's crazy that you recognize that of all movements yeah [1:33:47] But again, his... [1:33:48] because like he never shoots. He's a striker. He was sprawling and start doing his jujitsu from there. It, [1:33:54] Never really shoots. [1:33:55] And he just went like this. [1:33:57] And I'm like, what's going on here? I don't feel like sprawling. Something's wrong, but I don't feel like sprawling.

[1:34:05] So [1:34:06] Oh, here you go, here you go. [1:34:08] Oh my God. He does one. [1:34:11] He lands it. That's crazy. Boom. That is so crazy. Imagine doing that during sparring. [1:34:16] It doesn't make sense. And he's, I'm talking, he's hitting the bag. Boom, look. [1:34:21] That's crazy. [1:34:23] And I tell people, people feel like, nah, you're talking rubbish. You can hear that. [1:34:29] if that hit me that is so wild [1:34:37] And I wish he was able to show this. What kind of explosion you have to have to pull that off? [1:34:43] The amount of force you generate. Yeah. Yeah. [1:34:45] And who would see that coming? [1:34:48] I still don't, to this day, know how I saw it coming, but... Wow. If he did that... And again, he goes into... [1:34:54] He went into these fights and he would, it would be relatively basic. [1:35:00] He wouldn't show all of this kind of stuff. [1:35:03] So he would tighten up in fights? Yeah, he'd just tighten up a little bit. He just wouldn't express himself in the same way. Did anybody at that time work with a mental coach? [1:35:12] No, I wouldn't. From our gym, the only person I know did it from our gym was actually Alex Reid. But he is a weird character anyway. Funny guy, lovely guy. [1:35:25] But he used to have like therapists come and do this kind of stuff. And at the time, I feel like I didn't care for it because he just made it seem lame.

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[1:37:25] use promo code Rogan, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:37:31] I understand more so over my time the importance of the mental aspect of things as well. Maybe... [1:37:37] um [1:37:38] If someone could explain to him or if you could have a conversation about what goes wrong when he competes. Yeah. Like what are the thought process when he competes and what could be done different to change that thought? Like to combat them when those thoughts come up. Yeah. To have a tool. Yeah. Have a mental toolbox where you go, no, no, no. Yeah. We're not going to entertain this kind of negativity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to stay positive. We're going to stay zen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the most important things, don't ever give in anxiety. Yeah. Don't let it get to you. Don't let it flow you. [1:38:08] You're breathing. You're moving. You're a killer. Keep moving. And just have someone with him maybe initially to coach him through those movements. I wish there was some – again, but again, also maybe the – [1:38:20] The gym that he's in with us at London shoot, that's not a thing. We beast. We're just going to. And the thing is, he still looked amazing up into the fight. He'd get to the fight and you'd be like, bro, I can't wait for people to see this. Right, right. And he'd get there and you're like, what are you doing, man? Yeah. And it was just frustrating because he was still super talented. He won one and I think he lost the next one and then that was it. [1:38:44] but even his previous fights before that, he's got some exceptional fights, but just... Not what he's capable of doing. I've never seen what I've seen in the gym... [1:38:55] On stage. Wow. Never seen. And he still got signed to the UFC. Yeah.

[1:38:59] Just because he was still talented, but... And obviously somebody saw his talent and was like, yeah, I want that, but... [1:39:04] that nobody's ever seen [1:39:06] what I've seen this guy do. And all of our teammates are like... [1:39:10] If you've seen that, everybody would be throwing money at this guy. Just make sure he's on the next card. It's crazy. Yeah. It's really crazy. Yeah. Because it seems to be like that in almost every sport. Yeah. Yeah. [1:39:21] but in fighting in particular because it's the biggest mental hurdle. There's no team to fall back on. There's no, I guess we lost tonight, boys. No, you got fucked up in front of the whole world, and that's the sport that you're in. You're in the sport with the highest highs and the lowest lows. So that pressure is just – it's unbelievable. [1:39:43] unexplainable to the average person. Yeah, you can't explain it, really. This is why I try my best to... [1:39:52] Focus on the element of fun. [1:39:55] Because I feel like when I'm dancing, smiling, laughing, joking, everything slows down. [1:40:02] and everything's enjoyable. There's no stress. And anytime I feel slightly stressed, [1:40:08] you might see me dance, which is interesting because people... [1:40:12] just think I'm just doing it for the other person to mock the other person. And sometimes it's just, just stay chill, man. You're here. You're here. Like you don't need to do anything more than this. Right. If I feel like a little bit like, Oh, that was a bit, and my mind starts going, no,

[1:40:30] And then go back to enjoying yourself. [1:40:32] That's my... But I know some people need to be in this angry state and just... [1:40:36] psyched himself into it. And I don't even need to be angry at my opponent. [1:40:41] And I think that comes from the fact that [1:40:43] I used to have to fight my siblings... [1:40:45] It's not based on anger. I love them. But my dad, he used to say, that's not your sibling on the map, but straight afterwards, make sure you pick that person up, make sure they're good. [1:40:56] And again, my brother would beat me up. My other brother would beat me up. My sister would beat me up. [1:41:02] Everybody, but I still had love for them. So I never needed anger before. [1:41:06] to thing and and the fact that my family did this thing and even my nephews and stuff now we still they still [1:41:12] it's generational just something that keeps us all together and we're so close. [1:41:18] It's not based on being angry. [1:41:20] Just based on learning something, enjoying something, and doing it with people that you love. So that's why I can make it fun. Right. Everyone loves this whole tense. And I don't. I think what a lot of people don't understand, too, is the hardest part of it is the day of the fight. It's not the fight. Once a fight starts happening, then you're there. You're in it. You're in it. And it's not scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you're, you know. [1:41:44] Unless you're getting fucked up. Yeah. When you're getting fucked up and you know the end is near. Yeah. There's like, you want to see ultimate bravery. [1:41:53] Khalil roundtree in the last round with Pereira. Yeah, Pereira's putting it on him. That's ultimate bravery because he knows he's getting fucked up. He knows he doesn't have much time. There's nowhere out. His skill set is all in stand-up. I mean, he can take guys to the ground, but at this point, that's not going to happen. And his face is broken up. And Pereira's doing that Cobra thing where he gets Cobra style and he's back and slams in. Beautiful.

[1:42:17] It was terrifying. But that kind of bravery in front of the whole world, a lot of people, they're not sure if they have that. Yeah, fair. And so there's just the pressure of that in front of the whole world like that is overwhelming. So maybe they're in there just like, just do enough. Yeah. Just do enough. Exactly. They're scared. Which shrinks you. And sometimes super-duper talented people are the most scared because it kind of came too easy for them. There's a thing about super-duper talented people that for some reason, like that gift comes with a curse. [1:42:47] And that curse is that it came to you too easily, so you never really develop the real will and drive to overcome, just make these little tiny wins every day to pile onto a skill set. You're just a lightning bolt. [1:43:08] you don't know if you've been tested. You don't know who you are yet. I think I get that a lot though, as in people are always like, he's just naturally talented. [1:43:16] And only when I tell people that I used to get my ass handed to me. But this is the thing that I've always said. Guys who grow up with brothers, especially older brothers who can kick their ass, they're ready to fight at all times. You have to be. Because they're fighting in their fucking house. They're ready to fight with guys who can beat them up their whole life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just that alone, like, sets you up for competition in a different way than someone like, I grew up with my sister. We didn't fight. Yeah, yeah. It's like, nobody beat me up at home. It's totally different. Yeah, yeah. Because you're accustomed. [1:43:46] being around hostile males who are dominating. Yeah. Was it older or younger though? Younger sister. Okay, yeah, because my older sister would still beat me out. My sister never got into martial arts. I was the only one in the family who got into it. Oh, okay, okay, okay. But if I did, if I grew up with a bunch of brothers, I'm sure we'd be beating the fuck out of each other. Yeah, yeah. Weird enough, we had to do it

[1:44:04] There's one thing again, you'd always say, this is not for out here. This is for in there. If you've got an issue, verbalize it. [1:44:11] And if you still have an issue, we can sort it out. [1:44:14] in there but yeah i'd be annoyed we'd have fights every now and again but nothing crazy but it's just the accustomed being accustomed to just just constant back and forth how about fuck you yeah it's like it's in your house it's in your house and i'm i was the wind up [1:44:33] Oh, yeah? But I couldn't fight, so I had to do it some other way. So you had to talk some shit. Yeah, I'd talk some shit. You also have to be a little tougher because you're the smaller one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's part of the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's crazy about Jon Jones is his brother... He's got two older brothers, no? Yeah, well, I think... [1:44:49] One of them is younger. Isn't Chandler younger? [1:44:51] Thank you. [1:44:53] But they're all beasts. Yeah, of course. So you've grown up in a house of beasts. You better be ready for some hostility. You've got to be ready for some aggression. There's a giant benefit of that as far as mindset. Because the mindset, you're accustomed to hostility. I mean, all his brothers are super freaks. Just giant athletes. [1:45:18] And so – [1:45:20] You know, he's in this house with highly competitive males his whole life. So you're totally accustomed to competition. Whereas with some people, competition is like super overwhelming. And it's a test you don't want to take. You almost don't want to find out if you're good enough.

[1:45:35] I think school, even the school system has like, they slowly over the years, they slowly taken out certain things that allows, challenges people in a way that gives them that gift of... [1:45:46] being competitive and especially in the UK I don't know I'm not sure about in the States but in the UK they changed the rules this was just after I would have left [1:45:54] to, [1:45:55] um... [1:45:56] Not allowed to pick teams. [1:45:58] Because... [1:45:59] You know, because then people feel bad. Yeah. I'm like if you're shit, I'm not picking you get better Get this is real life like that's how it works in real life and that bad feeling of getting picked last Yeah, Lionel Richie was talking about that yesterday. Oh serious. Yes, so Lionel Rich before he was in a band It was always like he was the last one to get picked for this last one He was talking about that openly but look that's what created Lionel Richie hundred percent. Yeah, and again, I think we I [1:46:24] or again over there, I'm not sure here, but we model, molecule like the kids. [1:46:29] And then they think that you surround them in cotton wool. Yep. And then the real life hits them and they're just like, what? It's the opposite of Yoel Romero. Oh, yeah, exactly. You become a machine. My machine. It's the opposite. It's the opposite of that. I think I was talking to my brother as well earlier about how they say, was it? I forget the saying. It's like tough men create good times, good times, and the whole cycle of that. And it's... [1:46:53] It's very true, though. We're creating too much good times for people, and everybody's complaining about everything. Exactly. When things are really good, the problem is whatever is bad, even mildly, becomes a giant thing. Then you're dealing with microaggressions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would get crazy. They look for all kinds of grievances everywhere they go. Yeah. When you are involved in hard competition, you're not interested in any of that stuff. At all. Because it's just a giant distraction.

[1:47:23] is so difficult and that's why i think even though it's uncomfortable for kids i think like wrestling in high school any kind of competitive sports in high school martial arts especially i've been so valuable for you for ages i've been saying this like just it's okay to lose it's okay to lose and it's actually good for you very good for you and you need to learn this kind of stuff like i said as soon as you as soon as they're out of your care they have to experience that anyway you can't [1:47:53] we're teaching a jab or something teaching a jab and we're doing slipping drills [1:47:58] and [1:47:59] You're jabbing like this. I was like, you're not helping anybody by jabbing away from their face because now this guy thinks he's [1:48:06] amazing at slipping punches. Right. And then we make him spa and he's like, "Douche! Douche! Douche!" Move your fucking head! I'll do what I usually do! Douche! So I'm like, it's better that you hit him in the gym so then when they go out into the real world or they go into a competition and whatever, they can actually, they're actually good at [1:48:28] these drills that I'm giving you. You're not helping by trying to be helpful. Yes. You don't have to hit hard, but be accurate. Yes. Get them used to it. And then slowly speed up. Yeah. Bro, I say this all the time, but it's exactly the same thing. People need to go through those actual trials and tribulations and [1:48:44] In certain areas... [1:48:45] So that then they can be ready for it later on. 100%. And this idea of protecting them and everybody gets a participation trophy. Yeah. That's so bad for... That feeling of bad from losing is beneficial. It's just like the feeling of being tired after you work out. That's how you get in shape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good for you. Exactly. It's all good for you. You're getting into emotional shape. But this is why I feel a lot of people are trying to take shortcuts for everything. Nobody really wants to do...

[1:49:13] It's the hard work. It's the Olympic world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to do the hard work. And I get it. If it's really excessive, you let it get to a certain point. [1:49:22] And it's like, okay, you need to get at least some help to get to a certain point to then work out. But you need to work. You need to work. And it's good for your brain. Your brain is – we have, for whatever reason, a whole series of human reward systems that are built into our brains from the times that we were all living in tribes thousands and thousands of years ago. And in this brain, it requires tasks. [1:49:52] food, your family's surprised, so you have tasks. So you're whittling the stick and you're into it. And you better be fucking into it because if you're not into it, you're not going to eat. So if you have a life where there's none of those things and you're sitting there in front of Netflix, of course you're depressed. Of course you're depressed. [1:50:10] Your body's not getting any of the stuff that it needs. Your mind isn't getting any of the tasks that it needs. Someone was telling me, like, it's the reptilian mind that looks for dangers, or seeks dangers, because we're not in a society that... [1:50:22] has those dangers. We look at our dangers are now... [1:50:26] this person looked at me funny. Or this person... Or even worse, your phone. Your phone, yeah. It's even easier now, yeah. People are commenting on you. Oh, the haters are getting me today. [1:50:35] yeah to be fair it's funny the first time this was still earlier so my comments were from YouTube initially I had an Instagram but I didn't really use it like that so after my first fight

[1:50:47] I was super pumped. I'm like... [1:50:50] Because, like I said to you, I was so nervous after my first fight. And I always say, look... [1:50:56] If you watch all of my walkouts are being like, yeah, vibes. Yeah, yeah. I'm just happy to be here. [1:51:02] My first fight... [1:51:03] How's that it is? [1:51:05] Uh-huh. [1:51:07] I was dying inside, Joe. Just like, what? [1:51:10] In my head, literally, I was like, [1:51:11] Why did I decide to do this? I was like, why am I here? [1:51:17] I was stressed. The whole walk was the most, the longest walk. And you've never seen me so... [1:51:24] 10s. [1:51:25] And then the second I got in there and the bell rang, I was like... [1:51:27] Oh, same thing. Okay. Then I started to feel myself and the vibe, my energy started. The MVP that we obviously come to know now came out. [1:51:38] And... [1:51:39] that was for me that was just like that was great but [1:51:43] In terms of [1:51:44] uh... [1:51:46] I just lost Raoul, go ahead. [1:51:48] You lost what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:51:50] No worries. It happens all the time. But that was interesting that then the second fight... [1:51:56] was the one that really overwhelmed you. That was in the second fight in the UFC that overwhelmed me. So the first fight you ever had was when you walked out. That was when I walked out. The first fight you ever had. So that was me versus Dishman. [1:52:11] And I just walked out and seriously, I just had nothing. [1:52:15] But fear inside me. And what kind of athlete was he? What did he do?

[1:52:20] I'm not sure he's a kickboxer or something. [1:52:23] Didn't see my first fight. I had like... [1:52:27] I think three pull-outs... [1:52:29] before [1:52:31] I got to that fight. [1:52:32] Probably like three weeks before. [1:52:36] three different people at that level it happens all the time and I had fights online so my coach was like are you able to take these down I'm like they've randomly filmed from so many random people [1:52:49] So I wouldn't even know where to begin to... [1:52:52] find out to try and get them taken down. So I just, if anybody did research, they would see that I've got [1:52:58] I had like a 720 kick. [1:53:00] so it made sense why people was pulling out for people that don't understand what that means that's not a 360 degree kick this is one of them this wasn't even the first time i did it [1:53:17] Thank you. [1:53:17] Where is it? Yes. Is it coming out? [1:53:21] It'll be after this I've... [1:53:23] before. [1:53:25] Okay, yeah. [1:53:27] Way... [1:53:29] Okay, it's going to be... Yeah, I said just before this, just before this. [1:53:33] that's crazy that's such a crazy kick that dude is sitting there going how the fuck did he hit me with that he put his hands on his knees and everything like how the fuck did he pull that off [1:53:48] So I understand why people would look at that and be like, no, no, not yet. But this guy stepped in.

[1:53:54] And yeah, like I just... [1:53:57] I felt so bad, negative going forward, walking in, but then... [1:54:02] once I was in there. [1:54:03] But yeah, if you see the walkout... Oh, this one was... But even how I'm... Even here, I'm... [1:54:10] Super tensed [1:54:11] It was only until I started bouncing that... [1:54:15] It was... [1:54:16] even a thing. [1:54:19] What was the thing that was bothering you the most about doing this? [1:54:23] Just my decision. Why did I do that? I don't know specifically. [1:54:29] Oh, but once you got loose. Yeah, once I got in there, I was like, oh, cool. He had an obvious game. Yeah, yeah, he was trying to take me down. Yeah. [1:54:36] He wasn't strong, so I was like, yeah, just push off. [1:54:39] I was feeling good. [1:54:41] And I think after he felt my strength, he was like, okay, [1:54:44] kind of stood back [1:54:47] That's such a problem. I'm watching you move here and I'm thinking like, what do you do? Oh, you can't do anything. [1:54:55] You can't do anything because he's so far away from you. And like that, when you try to close the distance on him. [1:55:01] And or when rather he tries to close distance on you and he just can't. [1:55:05] He just can't get close. [1:55:07] Like, look at that. That's just nuts. That's a terrible puzzle to try to solve in real life. [1:55:13] Wow, look at that dive. That's pretty good, though. [1:55:16] You've got to hold your ankle. [1:55:20] That shows you how much you wanted that takedown. Yep. Until this happens. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[1:55:26] The best part is just standing there. That's amazing. Look at this is amazing. That's amazing. That's the best not walk off KO ever. Right? That's a standoff KO. Like you realize that's crazy. You didn't even look at him. That's amazing. It's funny when people ask me like, why did you stand there? Like, what if he came back? I was like, I landed the kick. [1:55:53] And I stood still and I was thinking he might come back. So I'm going to spin the other way and land another kick. That was the game. And then when he just, the referee stepped in, I was like, perfect. [1:56:04] This looks good. This looks good. It did look good. It looks slick as fuck. But that's the thing. Okay, that's where I remember I was going. I went crazy viral for that. Everyone's like, who's this guy? And I was, I was like, because of the relief that I had, because of how tense I was, I was like, oh my God. That was for me, tick in the box that I can actually do this. [1:56:23] career of this because I wasn't sure. And... [1:56:27] got home [1:56:28] What did you jump online? Like, I want to see, like, I'm seeing a video of, like, crazy thousands of, like... [1:56:34] comments and this and that like... [1:56:36] Okay, yeah, maybe the next comment. [1:56:39] Maybe the next one? [1:56:40] Nope. Yeah, people don't like me. They didn't like you for that video? [1:56:47] I felt like I had murdered someone's child. For that video? Yeah. Yeah. [1:56:51] Okay. It just shows you why you shouldn't read comments. No, 100%. Because you're only getting the opinions of the dumbest motherfuckers alive. If you just saw that. Yeah, yeah. So let me tell you my thought when I saw that. Because when that clip went viral, I went, finally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, this is proof of what I've been saying for a long time. Like, they have a different thing. Yeah. Like, the really elite point fighters have a totally different thing. And you can't even get close to hitting them. And we're seeing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the beginning of it. Yeah, yeah.

[1:57:21] So Raymond had really good... [1:57:23] success in glory. He did a great success in glory, but it was different because you're in a small ring, it's roped off, and he wasn't accustomed to leg kicks yet. He had that one spectacular jumping side kick, spin back kick to the face. He nearly hit me with one of those. He was very famous for his double back kicks. Oh my god. And then every now and again he would hook it. [1:57:47] and he's just like he's knocked people out in the points game and everyone's seen it like and I remember I think it was the first time I fought him [1:57:55] And... [1:57:56] I was young, but I had a reputation. He was the guy over in America that had a reputation. And we've collided. [1:58:05] Um... [1:58:06] I was like, I don't care who this guy is, man. I was feeling myself. I was killing everybody for ages. [1:58:11] I remember faking, like, moving, moving, moving around, moving around, faking, faking, got him in the corner. I was like, oh, perfect. Boom, blitz. Same thing. I was like... [1:58:19] Something's off. [1:58:20] did this. Pah, pah, [1:58:23] But both normally the first kick is light. [1:58:27] both stamps [1:58:29] I was like shit Not only was that fast, but I was powerful as well and that just got into my head this threw me threw me right off I didn't want to commit to any of my strikes and it just it just from the first from the first Moment he let go. I was like, yeah It was very dangerous dangerous very dangerous dangerous dangerous and he was another guy that like I

[1:58:52] we you know [1:58:53] prove that point that yeah this is a completely different skill set and if you don't know how to deal with that you're in real it took the elite guys it took like the nikki holtskins and the joseph valdolini's those guys to figures nikki was beast yeah just chop the legs yeah and nikki was so technical yeah yeah tight hands up high he was a beast yeah chopping the legs man is a totally different ball game yeah yeah as soon as the legs start getting chopped you're like it's [1:59:23] as a way to... [1:59:26] win fights not obviously taking the leg kicks but [1:59:31] only giving you that option [1:59:33] Mmm. [1:59:34] Everyone's like, yeah, but that's an awkward style. I was like, yeah, but when I stand in front of you like that, [1:59:39] you don't think to do a punch because I feel way too far away. So you're not doing a punch. The only thing you have is [1:59:45] what's in front of you is a kick. [1:59:47] So it's like I got used to timing kicks As you're kicking Collision Going in Or just pulling yourself And then [1:59:54] putting my foot in slightly deeper. [1:59:56] And then just pull it off and put my foot in slightly deeper. Now I know I can pull this trigger when I'm ready. [2:00:01] And you're getting more and more demoralised because you're not landing, right? [2:00:05] You throw in a kick, you're swinging around, and you're like, oh. And there's only one thing available. And there's only one thing available. Yeah. So I have to keep pressing that same button. Right. And the idea of you shooting on [2:00:13] It feels far. Yeah, too far. It feels very far. Well, that's... [2:00:17] the hamzat thing it's like hamzat shoots from the middle of the fucking octagon that that guy's got a crazy shot that shot he hit whitaker with and the one he went with uh who is it oh the leech when he picked up the leech he picked him up carried him over the day it's like i kill everybody like whoa this is nuts he was another guy they're like how the fuck are you making 170 yeah yeah he's a big he's a big when i first met him i was like what are you

[2:00:47] I hate it with a passion. I hate it more than anything in the sport. I think it should be eliminated, but it's too late. I don't think... I think people should get down to a healthy weight and fight at the healthiest weight, whatever the hell that is. Do you think that would be a way to... [2:01:01] combat that. Obviously in boxing, you have to weigh in multiple times now. Some fighters make you do that, like Javante Davis. He made Ryan Garcia do that. He wanted to make sure that Ryan Garcia didn't rehydrate. Mayweather did that to Canelo too. It's just a G move. That's smart. That's when you're the A side. You're the smaller. You're the A side. I'll fight you, but you've got to weigh 143 when you get in that fucking ring, bitch. Guys will take that fight for that [2:01:31] move. Yeah, yeah. [2:01:33] I just think that it's legalized cheating. [2:01:37] I just think that it's cheating. Look, if you're a 155-pound champion, but you weigh 190 pounds, that's kind of crazy. I agree, and if I didn't have to wake up, because if you don't join in, you're fighting monsters. That's true, but... [2:01:52] they would have to fight monsters too. Everybody would have to fight a person that weighs what they actually weigh. No, I agree with that. But I'm just saying with the fact that people are weight cutting, when I got to this arena, I'd prefer to just report – [2:02:04] I weigh that. Yes! [2:02:05] but [2:02:06] Because everyone's weight cutting, I was like, oh, you have to. You have to. You have to do it. Because, look, when you were fighting at 170, for people that understand – [2:02:15] I'm short. That's 30 pounds less than me. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.

[2:02:21] Like that's just a giant advantage that you can't give up. Yeah. And when you're doing that across every single weight class and every single world championship, the last guy that I know that didn't cut weight was Frankie Edgar when he was a 155-pound champ. When Frankie Edgar was a 155-pound champ, he weighed 155, and he moved like a ghost. He was all over the place. He was fast as fuck. He had great endurance. His recovery was incredible because he could take a great shot because he wasn't dehydrated like everybody else was. [2:02:50] That's the thing. I actually feel great at middleweight. [2:02:53] Yeah. [2:02:54] We definitely have the size for it. Yeah, I'm naturally that way. But it's weird, though, because people's body types, because they are cutting, they're still slightly stock. Not necessarily frame-wise as big as me, but they're just slightly stockier. And obviously, as you say, the guys that want to come in and just go, yeah. They just want to clinch and get you down. It's a giant advantage. It's an advantage if they're going to be that much heavier than me as well. Moving people. Like, even when in my last fight... [2:03:21] when I got taken down in that last round, [2:03:26] Trying to move him. I was just like, Jesus. Kandoneer is huge. He's a big boy. And he's one of the only guys that's got KOs in three different weight classes. I know, I know. From heavyweight, light heavyweight, middleweight. And middleweight. Yeah, beast. He's huge for 185. But it's another perfect example. And I think, look, there's something to be said for the ritual of doing it for a lot of fighters. It means a lot. And you could choose to cut less so that you're more healthy the day of the fight.

[2:03:56] Yeah, and I just don't think that's smart 24 hours before a fight in a cage Why would you deplete your body purposely because it's basically like getting drunk? Yeah, it really is You're dehydrating shit out of your body and people just look look a mess and you only have three five 40 hours to rehydrate between the weigh-ins the time you're actually gonna fight if you're lucky of 40 hours. Yeah, that's not enough time Yeah, I can do I don't care to do it. I can do it [2:04:26] I agree with you. You have to do it. If everybody was like, okay, let's all just do it at our weights. Well, imagine if people did dehydrate and rehydrate it and we started calling it cheating. You know what I mean? I mean, it would be if people got caught and they looked at it the same way people look at people getting caught with steroids. Fair, fair, fair. Because the reality is right now you can't do it because of the weight class limitations. There's too many weight classes where like – [2:04:51] Where you're at so 85 to 205 that's nuts. That's 20 pounds. That's so And for maybe people who've never grappled they don't know what that means or never been punched. Yeah, you don't know what that means But that's a giant amount of fucking horsepower. Yeah, yeah, yeah gravity on top of you. Yeah, and so if you're if you've got weight classes at a reasonable level [2:05:14] Space like I feel like 10 pounds is good. I feel like every 10 pounds. Yeah 45 55, yeah, and if you're in between you either add muscle or you lose weight Yeah, you stop lifting as much weights and more cardio you get down to that right? Yeah, not that's what you are Which you actually are and if we did that

[2:05:35] there would have to be some sort of a hydration thing where they just show up and weigh you. Yeah. Like, you know, like people show up and drug test you now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like drug-free sport, they'll just knock on your door. Hey, Venom, what's up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you be in this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense to me. [2:05:52] Yeah, just show up. What do you weigh? Get on the scale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you get on the scale. 190? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bro, you're a Bantamweight. This is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's dudes that are out there doing that. Oh, I know. 100%. [2:06:01] We always talk about Glacen Tebow. When Glacen Tebow was 155 pounders, he looked like a bodybuilder. He looked like he weighed 200 pounds when he got into the cage. It was nuts, man. Yeah, the rehydration. I've seen people cut. [2:06:14] ridiculous amounts and then yeah like you said the way they rehydrate it's terrible but it's also a lie you're not 150 pounds you're 200 pounds yeah that's what you actually weigh and i understand why you do it i understand why everybody does it but there's got to be a better way yeah this is [2:06:30] The worst I ever saw was Travis Luder when he fought Anderson Silva. [2:06:34] I don't remember that one. He lost, but he had Anderson down. Travis Luter was an elite black belt. Yeah, and he was in the ultimate fighter. Yeah, wins the ultimate fighter. I mean, dominates everybody, dominates people on the ground. Everybody I talked to trained with him was like, guys on a whole nother level as far as jujitsu. Yeah. [2:06:49] And the day of the weigh-in, he can't make the weight. And he's so dehydrated that his lips are cracked. Yeah, I see. And he's not walking to the scale. He's shuffling. Yeah. And I'm watching him. And he missed the first time. And then this is like one of the second or third time that he tried to make weight. And he eventually didn't make weight. So even if he beat Anderson, he wouldn't have won the title. Yeah. But, bro, he had him down. And he was on top of him in the beginning of the round. Yeah.

[2:07:16] For anybody that's ever rolled with Travis, if he was healthy and he has you down on the ground, you're fucked, Bill. That guy's good. He was really good, but it was just the weight was way too much. He was just drained. Then 24 hours later, you're supposed to fight one of the greatest fighters of all time. And it depletes the liquid around your brain as well. So you're taking a shot, so you're not going to take it as well. Exactly. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, I agree. You're tired. Your endurance sucks. [2:07:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's all fucked up. But it's why I get down very close to my weight. [2:07:50] Because I... [2:07:51] on fight week, I'm very low. Like, what do you weigh? If you're fighting 185, what are you weighing on fight week? 185 is easier though, so... [2:07:59] One-ninety. [2:08:00] Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't like the cartoon. What about 170 when you're at 170? [2:08:05] I'll get down to probably about... [2:08:07] 182, 183. Not that bad. Not that bad, and then cut down from there. That's not that bad. [2:08:14] Yeah, again, I don't like to overstress myself. [2:08:17] Pereira weighed in at 185 and fought at 220. He's massive. Fought at 220. Yeah. Weighed in at 85, fought at 220. Yeah. [2:08:25] Like you said, that's a lot. [2:08:29] That's insane. That's a lot. That's insane. Yeah. That's so much fucking weight. [2:08:33] And what does that do to you? Yeah. I've seen people. I can't even remember what fire is. It's in Bellator. And he was banging the sauna to get out, and his coach was holding the door. Oh, God. You need five more minutes. Oh, my God. And the guy is kicking the door. And he's like, I'm never doing that. I don't ever want to feel like that. That's so crazy. So many guys black out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:08:57] Yeah, seeing people passing out and stuff. Brian Ortega was just in an interview talking about that. He essentially like almost like – how did he describe it? It was like 30 minutes where he was like in real trouble for his last weight cut. [2:09:12] Yeah, he's like, it's just, he just got really wrecked. People have blacked out before. He's the lady that fell off the stage, fell off the scales, wasn't it? [2:09:20] Okay. [2:09:21] She stepped back off the scales and then just her legs just went. Oh, I don't remember. [2:09:26] 30-minute coma. [2:09:27] Oh, sugar. Due to his weight cut for Aljamain Sterling. Holy shit. But he missed, he keeps, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is too much for him. I don't know why, why doesn't he just go up? Well, that's the problem is the guys at 55 are jacked. I think he just, he dialed in his diet though. He looks a lot thinner now. Like he showed, pull up some of those photos he's got on his Instagram. He's been taking photos lately. Like he just, he realized like he can never do that again. So he's lost a lot of body. Oh, that's good. Yeah. So I think sometimes it is the discipline of it. [2:09:55] as well yeah look at him now way yeah yeah way leaner big difference that's where he doesn't know that in ages yeah yeah that's where he needs to be 100 you know he likes to live that good life [2:10:07] I was the same. Even when you said about like having like random weight checks, it'd make me consider certain burgers sometimes. Yeah, but they would have to give you an out of shape clause. No, of course, of course. You know, like give you like 10, 15 pounds in between fights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then once you start training, they should be able to randomly show up during those six weeks and go, all right, Michael, get on the scale. Yeah. 174. I agree with that. Okay, good to go. Yeah, I agree with that. Good to go. We're inside of six pounds. Because what you actually cut, what you're saying at 85 is perfect in my opinion.

[2:10:37] I don't like to be... [2:10:40] Five pounds is just a good weight sauna session. Yeah, yeah. It's not that much. You're not losing a ton of weight. You're not killing yourself. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you ride the bike for a half hour. What do you do? [2:10:49] I literally do a... [2:10:52] 30 minute jog. [2:10:53] It's like really low with a sauna suit on. [2:10:56] Straight away, I take that off, go straight into the sauna. 15 minutes, then wrap. 15 minutes, then wrap, and I'm done. [2:11:02] See, that's perfect. That's actually probably therapeutic. It's not bad for you at all. That's probably actually very good for you because you're giving your body all this recovery from the sauna and you're getting a nice little cardiovascular workout, but nothing crazy. You're giving yourself a lot of heat shock proteins. [2:11:18] You're not killing yourself. Yeah. [2:11:20] There's guys, man, I've seen them, and they look like, okay, here's the worst one. The worst one. Other than... [2:11:26] Other than Travis. Travis was the worst because I watched him shuffle backstage. But the visuals is TJ Dillshaw when he went down to flyweight. [2:11:36] He fought Henry Cejudo at Flyweight, and he looked like a dead man. Yes, I remember this. He looked like a hostage that had just gotten released and had not been fed. Yeah, just fed for ages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He looked... [2:11:47] Because he gets quite jacked as well. [2:11:49] Yeah, he fucked up. Yeah, yeah. He fucked up. Look at what he looked like on the left. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's crazy. That picture right there. That's what I mean. He's quite big there. Right, but that picture is fucking crazy. That's a prisoner of war. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That's not a guy. Look at what he looks like now. That's what I mean. Yeah, well, now he's a fucking tank. Now he's a tank. The one on the right is not fair because that's how he retired. Yeah, he's finished now. He's probably a buck 65 now. He's fucking jacked. He's massive.

[2:12:19] Here's another guy that doesn't get [2:12:21] the credit that he deserves when he fought hannon burrell i love this pure flow yeah it's pure flow but it's the it's the level uh changes of the up and you don't know where he's attacking it's not it's not linear it's not just i'm going here or i'm going here switching stances constantly yeah i used to love watching his style have you ever talked to ludwig [2:12:40] No. Oh, you should meet Dwayne Bang Ludwig. Okay. And talk to him. Because Dwayne is the one who coached him in that style. Ah, okay. Dwayne, who was an elite kickboxer himself and fought in the UFC. At one point in time, I had the fastest ever knockout in the UFC. [2:12:54] I think it was a five or six second knockout in the UFC. It was one of the fastest ever. Just step back, one right hand, slam. But Dwayne was a beast. But maybe even better than he is as a fighter, he is as a coach. Oh, wow. And he doesn't have that style. This is what's crazy. He devised that style. So this is Dwayne. Watch this. [2:13:16] There it is. See, you can call it six seconds. I don't even think it was six. Yeah, not there. No, no, no. I don't even think it was six. [2:13:23] But the point is Dwayne's style, like he learned from Bas Rutten and, you know, it's like Dutch kickboxing style. Yeah, yeah. But he realized, like Dwayne is like this consummate studier of fighting. And he realized that the best way to fight is to overwhelm them with possibilities and options but have a whole system of how to do that. So his system is all about switching stances and combinations while you're switching and turning and moving. But he's got it mapped out. Nice, nice, nice.

[2:13:53] my place with like a binder oh like this thick binder of techniques yeah yeah full-on egghead with this shit and tj and him just locked up and the fruits of that labor was the hen and burrow fight pull go go to that fight jamie so because i feel like this was one of the finest championship performances at the time i thought it was the best i had ever seen of a guy who was an underdog going into a fight yeah hen and burrow at that time a lot of people thought was the pound for pound best it was him and jose aldo they were talking about those two guys together and tj [2:14:23] DJ just went in there and [2:14:25] worked him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like a sparring match. He went in there super loose, just moving around, started cracking him. Yeah, yeah. It's a fun watch though. Just get me in there. Yeah, yeah. [2:14:36] This is like, Hennon Burrell was the boogeyman. Everybody was scared of this dude. He was so fucking good. Look how he starts. Look how he starts. [2:14:44] Ooh, step in with an uppercut. Just movement, constant movement, overwhelming you. And look, always on the tips of his toes, moving around. Yeah. [2:14:53] He didn't back up at all and never gave Hennenborough the chance to get some momentum going. And at the end, when he eventually stopped him, I mean, it was just a fucking ruthless combination. [2:15:04] when he took him out of there. But, like, if you knew how difficult it is to be... Beautiful shot. Look at that right hand. Right off the bat. Beautiful. In the first round. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At this point, Henneperow's like, oh, no. Yeah, I'm in problems. Yeah, because nobody had thought that TJ was going to be capable of doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. TJ, you know... [2:15:21] was a really good up-and-coming fighter, a really good contender, but this was his finest performance, and it was in a world championship fight against a guy that everybody thought was the man. Yeah.

[2:15:33] TJ just beat that ass and if you go like further see if you can go to the actual stoppage Jamie like further in the fight and [2:15:41] At this point in time, TJ's just styling on him. Just standing right in front of him and popping him. Look at that. Beautiful job. Not getting hit. [2:15:50] Staying right in range, dropping down. Head movement. Yeah. Oh, look at that head kick. Beautiful. Oh, my goodness. Beautiful. Look at this. I mean, and it's artistic. It's fucking beautiful, man. Yeah, I love it. It's a beautiful stoppage. Yeah. Like, one of the best championship winning performances in the history of the sport. Yeah, yeah, easy. In the history of the sport. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. But that dude, unfortunately, had two bum shoulders. [2:16:14] Oh, so is that what it was? Yeah, forever. Even when he won the title, his shoulders were fucked. He had torn super spinatuses in both of his shoulders. I've done one on this. It got to the point where he never got it fixed. It got to the point where they're just popping out. So by the time he fought Aljamain Sterling, he told the referee in the locker room, my shoulder's going to go out of socket. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just let me put it back in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [2:16:38] That's crazy to go in there knowing that that's... [2:16:41] So now he's got to retire, and he had multiple operations on his shoulder, and he can't even reach over his head. He gets his arm that far. Like, that's how fucked he is. Three months ago, he's got to get another one. Oh, yeah, you can see. Geez. Oh, my God. Get another soldiering. They're going to cut off the head of my humerus and turn the head into a plastic plunger. That sounds like a bit too much. I hate doing this surgery for anything. He has the worst shoulder injuries I've ever seen.

[2:17:07] I know there's been a lot like you're from before it was from wrestling I think it's just from having torn shoulders and just trying to rehab them and not getting them surgically fixed okay like if you can have some things loose in there and strengthen everything else up and kind of be functional but I don't know if you're going to be a world championship fighter and the problem with a lot of those things is once it tears and pulls back you can't get it back in place yeah so then you have really complicated surgeries you have to take a piece of your hamstring and stick it up [2:17:37] there or some other part of your body and reconstruct what was supposed to be there and then you have to slowly build range of motion into it like he got to the point where he was too tough yeah for the injuries that he had we should have probably got him fixed immediately and maybe he could have prolonged I feel like it sounds like he just he went back in in terms of getting back into training a bit too quickly [2:18:00] I feel like the rehab can work. I know, obviously, there's certain things you're going to need surgery for. [2:18:05] But there's a lot of my stuff I've managed to bring it back. I don't think he had surgery until after he was done fighting. [2:18:10] Oh, so he didn't even have surgery? No, he had surgery on one of his knees because he blew his knee out in the Sanhagen fight. Or I should say Sanhagen, after talking with Sanhagen about what happens in that 50-50 position, Sanhagen blew his knee out. Oh, okay, okay. So he put him in a position where if TJ didn't give in, he was going to get his knee fucked up, and he chose to get his knee fucked up. But that was Corey putting him in that position. So he had to get an ACL reconstruction.

[2:18:40] fighting he might have gotten one and then tried to fight again yeah but the problem is like his shoulders were fucked man they were really fucked but that doesn't look fixed like for you to be having to no no no no no it doesn't look fixed but i think that's all they could do with it i think it was that bad i think it was that bad i'm looking at an article from right after that fight it says his third shoulder surgery since 2019 okay so that's when he started getting them [2:19:05] And when was that fight? When was the last fight that he had? That was like 2023? The Aljo fight, I think it was 22? [2:19:12] UFC 280? [2:19:14] Is it 2022? [2:19:16] That's when this article is written. Okay, so he had those shoulder surgeries, and then I know he's had a ton since. Okay. [2:19:22] And since, you know... [2:19:24] Like, you look on his Instagram page, it's like, [2:19:26] every few months it's him and a sling. Well, here we go, trying again. I know guys that are like, surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery, and they... [2:19:33] It never seems to... I've never... Unless I'm forced to, I don't ever really go down a surgery route. I always try and figure it out a different way. Like, I've had... Weird enough, it was both my shoulders, but one was supraspinatus, the other one was rotator cuff. [2:19:46] and some lat injury as well. [2:19:50] But just slowly back to the point where I couldn't do a push-up when [2:19:54] in my last couple of [2:19:56] Was it Bellator fights? Yeah, my last few Bellator fights, I couldn't do a push-up. [2:20:00] I could still hit in certain angles. I was fine, but I had no strength in that direction. - While you were fighting? - While I was fighting, yeah. - Oh no. - Yeah, yeah. So literally, trying to get that, my arms would just start shaking. I couldn't... - Why didn't you do something about that before you fought? - I was doing like rehab. I was like, "As long as I can hit you, I'm fine." Like... - That's so crazy, going into a fight with that kind of a major handicap.

[2:20:25] I... [2:20:25] I've had worse, but... What's the worst? [2:20:29] I don't want to say it as an excuse. But the... [2:20:33] The day... [2:20:35] before my Ian Gary fight. [2:20:38] Couldn't stand on my left foot. [2:20:40] Why not? [2:20:41] Up till today, I don't understand it. I had the UFC PI working everything. They did shock therapy, they did acupuncture, they were doing everything. And I literally had it. If you see the fight, I literally had ankle supports on. [2:21:00] They said you're allowed the ankle support so you can't really have it taped. But I had it taped under the ankle support. But obviously if I couldn't just do one ankle, [2:21:08] So I had to do both of them. So I had to do both of them. And yeah, just the day before the fight, I'm not sure if I did anything when I was cutting weight, like twinged it or something. But I don't remember anything distinct happening. [2:21:21] Fuck. [2:21:22] Couldn't walk on my foot. So it was your ankle you twisted my is my ankle or something and they were working on literally I was trying I was in you know you don't have a single instance where it went. I don't remember anything I [2:21:33] All of a sudden, it just hurt. It hurt the night before. When you woke up? It hurt the night before. So on the weigh-in, it hurt. And I was walking around, and I was like, it's hurt. But it didn't feel like anything drastic. And overnight, it just got worse and worse and worse and worse. Probably exaggerated by the weight cut, right? Maybe, yeah. And then literally the next day, [2:21:52] In the morning, we had to go to the PI.

[2:21:56] My coach was like, bro, you can't bounce here now. I'm going to have to pull your fat out of that. There's no way I can get pulled from this fight. It's not happening. [2:22:03] I was like, it's not happening. Wow. And I went out there and he's like, I'm bouncing. I'm trying to adjust myself and bounce. And he had it. [2:22:10] they did the tape that he was going to use for the fight. And he said he'll come in and do it again just before the fight. And, yeah, it was... I was just like... Damn. Adjusting, adjusting. And obviously, I had a... Still had a great performance. Yeah, I had my... So my guy... [2:22:26] I have my video gefahr. [2:22:28] Kishan, he... [2:22:31] filmed, we're doing a documentary, so he's filmed all of... [2:22:36] it as well. I was kind of like, I waited till it comes out as known, but not even to say as an excuse, because I was able to, adrenaline, just, I'm in it now, and fight. But, you know, [2:22:46] But there were certain things I was being cautious of and not wanting to do. [2:22:49] But yeah, it was just irritating. But that's probably the worst in terms of how close to the fight it was because it's the day before. But I've had injuries in the build-up, and I'm like, as long as I can... [2:23:00] Throw a punch and throw a kick and make it happen. [2:23:05] That's the thing that people don't understand when we watch fights. Like sometimes guys, this is one of the things about the rematch this weekend, Ankaliev versus Pereira, is that Pereira supposedly had a fucked up left hand and rotavirus before the last fight. I believe it. He looked off. He looked off. He definitely didn't look himself. But Ankaliev looked really good. 100%. Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to take anything away from Ankaliev. When someone looks off, I'm always like, it's like Roy Jones.

[2:23:30] Like people go, Roy Jones didn't fight anybody. No, no, no. Roy Jones fought everybody, but he made him look like there were nobody because they were fighting Roy Jones. Exactly. It's like, so is that what's going on? Like, is Ancali of that good? And so we don't know. So we've got to see him fight again. I'd only say no just because towards the fifth round... [2:23:46] it looked like Perra could do some stuff. Like it's like, okay, you're actually now landing that calf kick a bit more now. You're actually starting to do... It's like, why didn't you start like that? He didn't have the gas. Yeah, so... If you've got rotavirus, your gas is very low, and probably your energy level feels very low. So he's trying to be... He's conserving energy and so... [2:24:03] So this is what makes this fight so much more interesting because hopefully he's had the camp he is. And Kalev hopefully comes in looking exactly the same way he did that last fight. Yeah, or better. Or better. He's going to be better because he's going to be the champion. I think there's a thing that happens, and Daniel Cormier has expressed this too. There's like a 30% bump. [2:24:22] When you become the champion, you just got, you got 30, you know, like when you were talking about when you won that tournament. Yeah. You were better. Boom. Yeah. I think there's that when you get the championship. Hopefully you're going to get to experience. Yes. Yes. You'll get to experience that bump. But this is, you know, I feel like. [2:24:38] That's just... We're going to have to see. And it's a very intriguing one. Yeah. Because Pereira, if he hurt his left hand, that's the doom punch. Exactly. That left hook is... Yeah, it's massive. That's the one. That's the one. If you look at his highlight reel, there's so many left hooks. And he catches people with that. Even when he grazed Jamar Hill. Yeah. It was a... I still don't get it now. He grazed him. He's got a hell of a punch on him, man. He put him out. He's got a hell of a punch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Yuri Prochaska one at the end of the first round. Yuri was like, yo. And then he head kicks him in the beginning of the second. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:25:07] Yeah, he's got ferocious power. [2:25:10] That head kick was fast. Yeah. Head kick was fast as well. Boy, I hope he's healthy. But I heard he's super heavy coming into this week. Oh, is it? I heard he's like 230. [2:25:20] Going into this week. Yeah. For him. I guess he's got a lot to cut. Yeah. Some guys can do it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what the fuck. Well, I guess if he was able to get to middleweight. Yeah. Well, yeah. But also sometimes it makes you lazier as well. Like, oh, I can do that. I can eat this. Yeah. And then you get close to the time. Oh, shit. It's a bit of work now. Well, he has talked about moving up. [2:25:41] Again. Yeah, and so has Ankalaya. Oh, yeah, actually he has. Yeah, yeah. Ankalaya just said that recently, that he wants to defend the title a couple of times, then move up to heavyweight. [2:25:50] I think it's a bit too small. Maybe, but if you put size on and he gives himself enough time, he's got the skill set and Aspinall's going to need some fucking challengers. But then does... Yeah, fair. Right? Unless Cyril Ghan beats him, right? Yeah, yeah. But then does he need... You know, does he... [2:26:07] I always say that the time that Jon Jones took off to get too heavyweight, does he need that kind of time? Because it takes a while to put on size like that. [2:26:15] Not sure. He takes ages. Not when you're over in Russia. Fair.

[2:26:21] Enough said. Real difficult to get those fucking drug-testing guys on a plane. If they do, everybody knows when they're landing. [2:26:33] Fair. Good luck going into the bathroom while those guys pee. Yeah. You will accept glass of urine. I will hand it to Vitaly. He handles it to you. [2:26:45] I'm not accusing him of doing that But I know that for sure Listen I mean [2:26:54] There was always the joke about guys going over to Thailand. Why are they going over to Thailand? It was good training. And also, really hard to get those USADA guys on a flight. Ah, I know that. Yeah, I thought it was a lot of speculation about that. I thought it was so ignorant to that kind of stuff. I just don't care enough because, like I said, I don't really have a schedule for anything, even the good stuff. Like the things you're supposed to be doing. I'm just like, eh, I'll do it. So you're not like a supplement guy? At all. I don't take protein shakes. [2:27:24] No? Nothing? Nothing. Nothing. That's crazy. No, no, no. Never. [2:27:28] Never been into it. Multivitamins? [2:27:30] vitamins yeah like but again I just forget to take them I'm seriously ADHD mind I'm just like you should have someone who makes like a little packet for you yeah so I'm gonna get my wife to do it soon because she's very into that she's very into her fitness and stuff she's a Pilates instructor she's got her own Pilates app and stuff and she's smartly

[2:27:54] Well, I don't even know if she even intended it that way, but she kind of blew up over COVID because she set up her app at that time. And now everyone's at home. Oh, perfect timing. You know what I mean? It's just perfect timing. And she just blew up her app called Cloud9 Collective. And she does Pilates for Women. But have you ever done Pilates yourself? Yes, I have. [2:28:13] Bro, I did a video with her and got her to train some MMA. [2:28:17] And then she's like, okay, you come and do this for lies. She killed me. It's a lot more difficult than I thought. It's so much. But I didn't know. Weird muscles. Yeah. Inside of your leg muscles. But that's what's actually helped with a lot of my rehab side. It's those muscles that we bypass. We go to the big muscles. We want to work these muscles. And it's all those little ones that are not getting worked. And those are the ones that are injured. Stabilizers. Stabilizers. Yeah. And I didn't know that it was... [2:28:41] a man, I forget his first name, but called Something Pilates who started it for men in war. [2:28:48] to help recover guys in war to get them back out to war. But it's become such a female-led... [2:28:56] Well, that goes to speak about what I was talking about with the Russians and being technical. You know who was really into Pilates? Kovalev. [2:29:04] Remember when Kovalev was the light heavyweight champion? The crusher. He was fucking everybody up. He was big in the Pilates. He was doing Pilates all the time. And everybody was like, wait a minute, what? That guy? The strength you can get from anywhere. Because, like I said, those smaller muscles that help facilitate the bigger muscles. Yeah. [2:29:20] Like, it's crazy. It's the same people that like look down on yoga like, bitch, go to a 90 minute hot yoga class. OK, I did that. Yeah. Hard. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to go to a yoga, a hot yoga. You know, I was more thinking just it's nice to kind of get the sweat going and stuff. I remember the lady, she's like, oh, yeah, go to if you go to that side of the room, it's a bit it's quite hot.

[2:29:41] So, you know, if you're new to it, just go to this side of the room. And I was like, this woman, whatever, man. [2:29:46] get over that hot side. Let me go to that hot side. And she's like, oh, you know, if you ever feel faint at all, you don't have to continue. You can kind of just sit down. I'm just like, what is she talking about? It's not that hot in here. Google me, lady. Bro. [2:29:59] I think like three moves later, I slowly just like moved the mat [2:30:03] Like, I didn't want to go too far. I didn't want to. But I moved from the hot side of the room to, like, the middle-ish, closer to that side. And then there was one move I was just stretching, and, like, I literally just got lightheaded. I was like, shit, this is real. It's real. It's real. You see all those little old ladies in there, and you think, oh, this is these. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's difficult. My wife is strong as hell, and I'm just like, yes, it has to be from that. Like, she, and then when I do the session, I did a session with her this morning because she does some great sessions. [2:30:33] session I've ever heard like she kills it and she's [2:30:36] I have to say she's smart in how she's done it as well because actually something I didn't know because on her rap she's done a cycle syncing [2:30:44] specifically for women. I didn't realize that women have a, obviously I knew women 28 day cycle and men have a 20, 24, 24, [2:30:53] day cycle. [2:30:56] 24 hours and they have 28 days. So there's specific times that they should be training harder than they shouldn't be training or they should be doing this and should be doing that. Based on biometrics? Based on time of the cycle of the month. But again, in my head, I'm like, there's girls that are training our class and they have to train and do everything that we do.

[2:31:16] Mmm. [2:31:18] We forget that. We're just doing it based on men can kind of just keep going. Well, women should think about that when they're scheduling fights. 100%. [2:31:25] That should be a thing. And as I said, she did it for Pilates. And I looked into it and I was like, oh, there's actually, this is like even down to ice baths. Great for you. Not for women, though. Not all the time. But if you look into it, so there's specific times that's okay for them, but they shouldn't put their body under that kind of stress in the same way that we can. [2:31:46] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So there's loads of... When I started looking at certain... There's loads of things that... [2:31:50] We forget that a lot of times it's done from a male point of view. Right. Forgetting that we're just different. [2:31:57] I never would have thought about that in terms of their menstrual cycle and fighting. But of course. Of course. [2:32:04] Yeah. Wow. So, yeah, she's put it on so individuals can actually be like her. It was scheduled and say, look, you're good specifically for you are good to train intensely today. Or no, you need a very relaxed session. And these videos that she's got hundreds of videos on, I think that will come up and be like, this is for you. This was for you. This was for you. But again, it just made me think about the women in MMA, like you said. [2:32:25] yeah it's the same thing scheduling even down to for them weight cutting yeah [2:32:29] you know, [2:32:30] at a certain time, going through their loot of your face, they're holding weight. Right. Like, it's just different. Yeah. We don't have any of those issues to worry about, but we get them to do the same structure as we would do. That's a very good point. [2:32:43] You know what I mean? They should be more information about that, even for the female fighters. Yeah, they should actually be, like, their coaches should be setting fights up entirely based on... I wonder, like, how many fights they would have won that they...

[2:32:57] There you go. Couldn't really train. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're cramping up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just which is different. When you I've seen some videos of you. You do a lot of plyometric stuff. Yeah. Right. And is that something you've always done? Well, it kind of comes with just this is why I feel like I can bounce on my cast for ages just because of. [2:33:16] that constant and it seems to be a thing now i didn't really understand it well enough it was just kind of how i trained and now did you train like that from the beginning yeah just because of the points fighting style is it's a lot of that shifting right right [2:33:29] But did you – but back then when you were doing that, were you just doing the martial arts training or were you doing specific plyometrics? Martial arts training with plyometrics. The reason why we did plyometrics – [2:33:39] more so is because we were also doing a lot of our catas [2:33:42] We did martial gymnastics, so the forms. Ah. So I had to learn how to do these crazy kicks and stuff, in which I would then... This is why I would try 720s. Not because... [2:33:54] Like... [2:33:55] I just randomly decided to just throw it out today. It's because we were drilling them just for catadale. [2:34:01] And I was like, well, if I can do it for Kata, then I could... [2:34:03] Surely I can find the time to... [2:34:05] Throw it. [2:34:06] When I'm fighting. And I would be brave enough to try and attempt these things... [2:34:11] in the points fighting world. [2:34:14] Yeah, there's a couple of kicks. I keep telling people, there's a couple of kicks that even for me, I haven't even shown you what I can actually do yet. There's a couple of kicks that I know... [2:34:23] I can land. And usually it's easier on people that are [2:34:27] well trained. So usually the better fighter is actually easier to hit them.

[2:34:31] Just because they are very... [2:34:33] traditional they're very well trained they have patterns that i can pick up on them like ah you're gonna step this way and you're gonna do that [2:34:39] and I always tell people I call it attaching strings the first minute of the fight not too much happens for me [2:34:48] because I'm faking this, that, that. But every time I'm faking something, you twitch. I'm like, ah, this means this. Yeah, you twitch. This means this, this. And I'm just attaching strings to you. So now I'm... [2:34:59] moving you. [2:35:00] you just became pinocchio but that and that's important this is why like you said all those fakes but those fakes mean something yes you know i mean i want i'm getting i'm like you said i'm getting that information from you okay okay yeah he wants that if i do this he wants that okay i see it okay perfect now i got it yeah that's what's so important for a casual fan to understand yeah that there's a whole game taking place that if you could play it you would understand what he's doing yeah but [2:35:30] movement random movement you're like hit him yeah why don't you hit him meanwhile you're if you knew you'd be watching something beautiful yeah exactly you're watching you know a dance yeah snake charming yeah that's this yeah it's part of the identity man it's part of the identity well i try to tell people though but yeah do you know when you're fighting again have they given you any kind of an idea like i said i pushed out information i keep chasing up to kind of find out and i haven't

[2:36:00] That's what I'm saying. It feels like things are slowly starting to happen. Still waiting. So Protas is going to fight Leon Edwards. Yeah. So 170, which is what you're looking at the most, right? Yeah. I want to get back. I know I'm big now. You can make it, though. I've seen you make it. I can make it. I want to get back down. Yeah, yeah. I want to get back down to 170 just because, like I said, I feel like I think JDM is a great player. [2:36:24] An amazing fighter. [2:36:26] um i just film stylistically i can beat that but i can beat him well it's a very good style for stand-up for you yeah that's for sure yeah he's very complete very complete yeah he's very very very good i really like his style and very smart you can tell he's very smart like he has in specific to the opponent he's like okay yeah but like i said that's one of the advantages is like you're not gonna have it's gonna be very difficult for you even as smart as you are to figure that out well that's why it's exciting for you with any stand-up fighter as soon as you're fighting a guy [2:36:56] Like, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you sure you like to say that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I tell people this all the time. Welcome to this new thing that you've never experienced before. This guy you can't even touch. I make these guys wrestlers, man. I make all these stand-up guys wrestlers. And they always, everyone's like, oh, I'm going to strike with you. Well, listen, brother, I can't wait to see you in there again. I'm a giant fan. I'm so happy you're at the UFC now. Yes, sir. I know you do a lot of stuff online, so tell people how to find you. Yeah, so – [2:37:20] Again, it's all the social media, Michael Venom page, everything, Instagram. [2:37:24] I don't really do Twitter as much or X, sorry. [2:37:29] My Facebook, YouTube, I'm doing a lot of stuff.

[2:37:33] ITM, actually, I'm doing a film company. I always try to set myself up [2:37:39] for the next stage my creative mind won't stop you want movies i'm making movies i've already made i already made uh two short movies wow uh and again the same congratulations that's awesome thank you thank you and i want to get to acting as well [2:37:52] What are they about? So the first one was actually about an athlete's mindset. One thing that I find with films, I think people are lazy watchers nowadays. They find just explosion, explosion, action, action, action, and crap storyline. But I want storytelling again. [2:38:07] And this one is just more about an athlete's mindset. I did it through the eyes of a runner, just because it's slightly different. I didn't want to just go down the same lane as MMA. Did it through the eyes of a runner and just how toxic... [2:38:23] your want and your need to be the best [2:38:25] how it can look like. [2:38:27] And again, I'll go into that one. I'll let people watch that one. That one's just called Runner. The next one's called Wait. And it's kind of about what anxiety can look like. [2:38:39] from a position of waiting for good news. [2:38:43] and a position of waiting for bad news and how the parallels work. [2:38:49] and look almost identical so you're literally watching two point of views so yeah [2:38:56] uh, [2:38:57] These two [2:38:59] .

[2:39:06] Thank you. [2:39:06] Thank you. [2:39:07] So this dude's just freaking out waiting for... [2:39:12] Yeah, he's he's that's fucking cool. [2:39:17] Thank you, man. That's very cool. Yeah, like I said, I'm a creative mind. I need to express it in some way. And I know when I leave. [2:39:25] I'm not going to be one of those guys that retire and want to come back every time I want to come back if I say I'm done that I'm done. Well, that's great. And I need something else to go into nothing better. Yeah. Yeah. Having something you look forward to that you actually enjoy outside of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's hard. It's very hard for guys to end. It becomes your identity. A hundred percent. And the thrill, you know, more than anybody. The thrill of doing that is above and beyond almost anything else you'll experience in life. My thrill is usually for me anyway, it comes from expressing art. [2:39:55] And we call it martial artists. As much as people see sometimes the blood, the knockouts and stuff, it's art. [2:40:01] like we just watched TJ Dillard's show that was art that was pure art pure art like yeah [2:40:07] people don't appreciate that side of it. And I love to paint pictures. And I'm like, how can I continue... [2:40:14] painting pictures. [2:40:15] after this stage of my life i'm like okay yeah cool well listen man if you make movies like you can fight i'm in yeah yeah trust me we're doing i believe you i believe you and uh the guy my camera guy kishan like cany he's it just worked the synergies just work he's directing films like he's done it for 20 years and he's just unbelievable so that's awesome we're gonna do some uh magical things i love hearing stuff like that i really do i really do and i got uh so like i said i got a gift for you anyway

[2:40:43] what do you like red or red or black you can have both if you want what is it just a t-shirt oh nice it just represents who we are hands down [2:40:53] martial arts, there's guys that do this, and everyone mocks all the time, but it's obviously my brand, so, extra large, large, large, yeah, let me see, large, yeah, large, thank you very much, there you go, thank you, and then, also, I got, again, I'm into everything, but I got a beef jerky company, called Snapdown Snacks, for snapping people, wrestling, snapping them down, Snapdown Snacks, so Snapdown, or Snapdown, and some Snapdown, beautiful, thank you, [2:41:23] man all right fantastic yes enjoy let me know what you think how do people find that company is it a website yeah just snap down on uh snap down snacks yeah yeah yeah yeah and when you when you're if you're in um the uk next or when you're in the uk next let me know um i've got a mexican [2:41:41] uh as well ikshell wow yeah yeah that's great you're invested in all kinds yeah yeah yeah we actually had uh kendall's uh kendall jenny's um 818 tequila featuring in there we're gonna have jason momoa um come in end of this month with his uh vodka melee vodka so look at you i'm in shaking we're everywhere everywhere um all right man i'll see you this week yes thank you for doing [2:42:11] Bye, everybody.

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