SERIAL KILLER: L.I.S.K.

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And I want to say a quick welcome to all of our new listeners. We are so happy you came for the Adnan Syed episode, and we're even more happy that you decided to stick around. Yeah, last week was insanely big for us, and we have so many new listeners. I know, it's amazing. Our episode on What Serial Didn't Tell You got the attention of Rabia Chaudhry and Colin Miller at the Undisclosed Podcast, and they ended up tweeting [01:00] our episode, telling all of her followers that she listened to it and loved the episode. Yeah, and I want to quote, like, she said it gave her chills, which was amazing. I got full body chills when she said she got chills. It was a whirlwind week, and there's literally no way we can repay these two shows. So if you guys are willing to help us try, go to both of their shows, Undisclosed and My Favorite Murder, and leave them a five-star review, even if it's just for recommending Crime Junkie to their fans. [01:26] Also, we have one more favor to ask. If you listened and you liked the Adnan Syed episode, please consider donating to his legal fund. A good legal defense costs a GD fortune. And since the legal system is basically broken, if you don't have good representation, you're super screwed. Adnan finally has a real shot at a new trial. So please donate a couple of bucks to make sure he can actually put up a good fight when he goes to trial.

[01:56] over the last three years, and there's a long fight ahead of them. So go to launchgood.com slash free Adnan and help him out. So thank you again to Undisclosed and My Favorite Murder. They both changed the game for us, and I hope in return we were able to change a couple of opinions about Adnan Syed. [02:15] And with that, we're on to the show. [02:45] All right, junkies. This is a case that I have been obsessed with since 2010. And it's one of those where the more you learn, the more questions you have. And I am talking about the Long Island serial killer, otherwise known as Lisk. And this saga has been the topic of books, multiple documentaries, and consumed online web sleuthing community. And this all began in May of 2010. [03:15] escort named Shannon was working in conjunction with a driver named Michael. And what you need to know about Shannon is that she didn't have a super stable upbringing, but she was really smart graduating a year early and she had big dreams for herself. After graduating, she tried a couple of jobs at being a hostess. She tried working at the front desk of a hotel, but it was hard to get by. And eventually she hooked up with an escort company. And the draw of these companies are

[03:45] single night what it takes three to four weeks to make at a normal job. And it's hard to turn down for a girl who's trying to make it on her own. So Shannon eventually has a couple of run-ins with the law while she's working for this service agency and they end up getting shut down. But that's when she realizes that she can actually start making more money by advertising directly online and leaving out the middleman. And her hope is that if she can make more money, she can start [04:15] to take steps towards changing this trajectory of her life. So on May 1st in 2010 at 2 20 in the morning, Shannon places a call to her driver, Michael. She says that she's just finished up a call in Manhattan and she needs to be picked up. So shortly after this, Shannon gets picked up and gets another call from a guy named Joe who lives on Oak Beach in Long Island. This is about an hour [04:45] but the pay was really good at about $250 an hour. [04:50] Shannon and Michael arrive in Oak Beach at two o'clock in the morning. For out calls like this so far away, the protocol is Shannon will go inside and Michael, her driver, will wait outside for her. Along with being her driver, Michael also kind of acts as sort of protection or security for Shannon. From here, this is what we know for sure. Shortly after Shannon arrived, Joe comes out of the house with Shannon and they tell Michael that they're going to go run an errand. They're gone about 15

[05:20] And then they go back inside the house. It's assumed that they were buying drugs, but it hasn't been confirmed. But let's be real, like if they were buying drugs, Joe's not going to be like, yeah, for sure. We went to buy coke. Police like the end. Right. So, but that's the assumption. We also know for sure that after about two and a half hours of being there with Joe, Joe comes out to Michael's car and says something along the lines of, dude, she's freaking out. She won't leave. I want her gone. [05:50] Joe later tells the star ledger that he had questioned whether or not she was really a woman or maybe if she was transgender. And that's why he wanted her to leave. And he said he made a trip to the bathroom. And when he came out, she was acting erratically, just freaking out. And he swore that in the two and a half hours that she was in there, they never had sex and he never gave her money. OK, sure. Right. So Michael thinks this is absolutely crazy. He goes inside to get Shannon. [06:20] gets Shannon she's totally acting weird and Joe tries to actually grab her from behind and she flips out and goes and hides behind his couch and calls 911 and while she's on the phone with them she keeps screaming that they're trying to kill me and this call was made at exactly 4 51 a.m. At this point she's on the phone with police she won't leave she's saying everyone's trying to kill her Joe checks out he tells Michael listen this is your problem now peace I'm going upstairs make

[06:50] my house so michael keeps trying to get shannon out but she is acting absolutely insane and she's still on the phone and even he is like this is nuts and he tells her one more time let's go and she repeats again that you are trying to kill me so finally michael's like okay then i'm leaving and she responds really strangely like almost she snaps out of it for a second and she asks him not to go wait so one second he's killing her the next second she's like no don't leave me i guess so [07:20] Something scared her in that house. Either she was having some kind of break or she was having a reaction to drugs or she thought the guys were trying to kill her or I guess Joe could have done something to scare her and then she thought Michael like brought her there so he had something to do with it. But when he was leaving, she questioned it. I don't know. This is all part of the mystery. So finally, Michael just has enough and he leaves and goes to wait in his SUV outside. [07:50] this time, Shannon goes running out of Joe's home. She doesn't get in Michael's SUV. Instead, she runs past frantically and goes to a neighbor's house where she's banging on the front door, repeatedly yelling for help. An older man who lives at the home named Gus comes to the door because he was already up shaving. And he's understandably startled by this. He has told police a couple of different stories over the years. Sometimes he says that he let her in and

[08:20] that he didn't let her in at all. That's kind of weird that his stories change and conflict a lot, don't you think? Not really. I think it's part him being older and part faulty memory. When something crazy like this happens, it's not unusual for people's stories to change a little bit. Plus, if he didn't let her in, I can see him regretting that decision and trying to tell the story in a way that makes him feel better later on. Yeah, I get that. Okay. But even more reason why I don't think he's suspicious [08:50] 522 a.m. Gus tells Shannon that he is going to call the police and get help and this scares her and wherever she was inside his house or outside of his house she takes off and at exactly 522 there are call records that show Gus called police and was on the phone with them describing the incident with Shannon. Now Gus says when Shannon first ran out of his home she first ran to the middle of the road then when she saw Michael's SUV coming down the street she turned back and hid [09:20] the boat in Gus's driveway. Michael kind of does a slow drive by and calls out to Gus asking if he's seen a young girl. He tells them that they were all having a party at Joe's house. She got a little upset. Things got out of control and she's running from him and he's trying to find her. That's not suspicious at all, right? Like I'm sure Gus was like, okay, that seems really suspicious because this girl is actually hiding from you. Exactly. He doesn't tell Michael that he has seen her

[09:50] Yeah, but I'm sure he just meant because Shannon was an escort and he was... [09:59] accomplice with her technically and wouldn't want the cops there. Right, but a little weird because we all know Shannon already called 911. So as they're having this interaction, Shannon bolts out from behind the boat and starts booking it again. Gus tries to follow her, but he can't keep up enough to stop her. And he says instead of taking a right and running out of the neighborhood, she actually takes a left down a street called Anchor Way, [10:29] way. [10:29] We know she stops at one more house on that street on Anchor Way, trying to get help, and that neighbor also called 911. Michael is still looking for her at this point, but Gus is waiting at the main gate for police to show up. And at 6 a.m., when it starts getting light outside, Michael decides to leave. He's not going to stick around for when the cops come. At 6.10 a.m., a full 45 minutes after Gus called the police, they finally arrive and meet him at that front gate. They don't do a full search of the neighborhood. [10:59] tell them what's going on. All police have is Gus and this call from a neighbor down Inker Way saying that some girl is freaking out. But since she's nowhere to be found, they just chalk it up to domestic disturbance and leave. [11:12] Wait, so the police arrived for Gus's call, but what about the call that Shannon made, like, a half an hour earlier? Ooh, great question. And this is where everything starts getting very strange. No one was ever dispatched to Oak Beach for that call. And, to make matters worse, no one even put together that the girl calling for help was the same girl that these other callers were calling about.

[11:42] Beach instead of Oak Beach. They're right near each other, but far enough away to clearly throw off the dispatchers. And that's the last time Shannon is seen or heard from. Now, this is where things get chilling for real. It's now two days after. So Shannon was on Oak Beach on May 1st of 2010. It's May 3rd, 2010. And Shannon's family doesn't even know she's missing yet. Shannon [12:12] go two days without talking to her. [12:13] Shannon's mom, Mary, gets a phone call, and the man introduces himself as Dr. Peter Hackett and asks Mary if her daughter is there or if she's still missing. Full body chills. Oh, there's more. He says he runs a house for wayward girls, and Shannon had been with him right before she went missing, and he had taken her off the street after she knocked on his door, and he said he gave her a drug to calm her down, and then she left with her driver but never returned. What? [12:43] this guy? Who's Dr. Hackett? Well, remember that house on Anchor Way that last called 911? Yes. Well, he lived right next door to that house. Wait, he's saying he took Shannon in that night, but then she left with her driver? Right. And the odd thing about this is Shannon's mom didn't even know she was missing yet. Oh my God. Yeah, it had only been two days. Mary is even more concerned

[13:13] even gotten her phone number and when she asks him about this he says everyone who comes into his home to be treated has to give an emergency contact number but mary swears up and down that shannon would have never given out her phone number shannon would actually end up getting officially reported missing that day her family tried to track down her last movements and they find out she really was on oak beach where dr hackett had called from so they try and make her [13:43] and New Jersey where she lived. But the report ends up staying with New Jersey. And because it's with New Jersey, this is one more reason that they never connect her missing person report with the 911 call made in Oak Beach. And they wouldn't make the connection for another four months. [14:00] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [14:19] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [14:30] So things get a little stranger still. The investigation into her disappearance is barely anything. Whether it's because of the confusion in jurisdiction or the discrimination because of her profession, police didn't take it seriously.

[15:00] He's never made a call to her. Wait, what? He said he never called her? Right. He said he never called Mary. He has no wayward home for girls. And then all of this is nonsense that's made up by Mary. She has no motive to make that up. Also, how would she make it up? She didn't even know her daughter was missing. [15:30] the call while he was in New Jersey near Mary's home. What? Yeah. This has never been fully sorted out. They both stick to the same stories. Mary says he called and says he treated Shannon. Dr. Hackett says he never spoke with her and he can't explain the call that was made or where it was made from. So many more questions. If he says he didn't take in Shannon, fine, but we know he made the call. How would he have known who Shannon was? No. [15:55] Right. She was just some girl screaming through the neighborhood at that point. And how would he have gotten her mom's phone number? He had to have had significant contact with her in order to have that information get passed on. Nothing about this guy makes sense, Britt. Nothing. But we don't get more answers. The only thing we do get is we find out he basically is a serial exaggerator. He had made up stories in his personal and professional life that caused a great deal of embarrassment for coworkers. [16:25] So it was just something he was known for. He's that guy who's going to stick his nose in and pretend he was there or pretend he was involved. And maybe he had nothing to do with something, but he wants to be part of the story. So he could have called Shannon's mom just to be in the middle of this crazy thing that was going on, even though he had no interaction with her. OK, but if he had no interaction with her, how did he get all of her information? Girl, I know it is one of the big questions that still lingers.

[16:55] Even after everything unfolds, Shannon's family cannot look past him. But police say that they clear him along with her driver, Michael, and along with Joe, the guy she went to see that night. But I have to move off of all of them to tell you the rest of this story because Shannon is an important but small piece of what's to come. So the summer goes on and goes into fall and no real search effort is put into place by police to find Shannon. [17:25] German Shepherd dog named Blue out in the fall to see if he can pick up a scent. Oh, tracking proper. I know. But this officer freely admits that he never thought he was actually going to find anything. And it had been so long and chances were so slim that even if she was there, he wasn't going to pick up anything. So he was really just doing this as a training exercise for his dog. [17:55] focuses on the areas close to Ocean Parkway because he has read somewhere that when a body is dumped, it's most likely going to be within [redacted address]. So he and Blue search and they search. And I have to set the scene for you a little here. When I heard beach, I got this idea of sand and long grass, and it's totally not the case. They're these marshy areas. And what I want you to think, it's this thick grass and weeds and thorns.

[18:25] hardly walk through it. It's muddy and marshy, so it's not a beach you would go to for vacation. It's a totally different kind of area. I suggest anyone who hasn't seen pictures look up Oak Beach or Gilgo Beach, and you'll get an idea of what they were trying to wade through. It was really rough terrain. But on December 10th, Blue starts indicating that he is on to something. And sure enough, along the side of the four-lane ocean parkway on Gilgo Beach, the officer follows a [18:55] the marsh and there he finds a burlap sack holding decomposing skeletal remains. Oh my god, Shannon was there the whole time? Well, someone was there the whole time. Okay. Well, like you, everyone assumed that this had to be Shannon, but it's not her. What? It's discovered that they are the remains of another young escort named Melissa who went missing in July of 2009. And like you'll [19:25] a couple of days later, police find three more sets of remains, all skeletons, all wrapped in burlap, [19:35] all laid within a short distance of one another, and later found all to be young escorts who were named Megan, Maureen, and Amber. They all listed their services on Craigslist or Backpage, just like Shannon and just like Melissa. And these women will forever be linked together and known as the Gilgo Beach Four, because they were found on Gilgo Beach. But none of these women were Shannon. None of them. The police officially announced on January 25th of 2011,

[20:05] that they are looking for a serial killer. And while they keep trying to comb the land a little bit longer, they hit a wall when the weather becomes too bad, and they basically have to hit pause for the winter. So while they're holding on expanding their search, police are investigating these women. And the best place they can start is with the people who were players when Shannon went missing back in 2010, and back when everyone was still thinking these guys have to all be related. [20:35] night she went missing. They vetted him but couldn't link him to any of the girls. They go back to Michael, Shannon's driver, but again nothing on him and he's cleared as well. Then they finally go back to Dr. Hackett but again cleared. No connection. So with the locals ruled out and they're out of the way, the next step that the police take is to take a deep dive into each of these girls lives. Who did they know? Who were their clients? And was there anything that stuck [21:05] hard for them to find anything. [21:06] They couldn't link all of the girls to one guy through their phone records. And even though they used Craigslist, Craigslist uses an encryption that hides real email addresses. And in addition to this, whoever they were meeting also was able to hide their IP address. So they couldn't track them through this. And this is a clue that police will point to later. You have to think this is the early 2000s. Most people have some understanding now of how to hide an IP address if they got a VPN.

[21:36] But whoever was doing this had to have some basic understanding of IT to know how to do this. It also should be noted that police believe all the girls knew this guy somehow. Enough to be comfortable with him and let their guards down because a couple of the girls left to go meet this John without a purse or a cell phone, which is a big no-no for sex workers. So whoever it was probably made them feel comfortable by having a few normal encounters with them. Right. [22:06] story that really stuck out with me the night that amber was last seen and she was the last one of the gilgo beach ford to be found correct yes the night she was last seen she got an offer to do an out call for [redacted address] higher than usual something that was too good to pass up and that's kind of something that you'll hear over and over with a lot of these girls is they got an offer [22:36] pick her up and when he arrived at 9 45 p.m her roommate dave walked her to the edge of the driveway and he said goodbye to her and what he tells the interviewer in this documentary is that something that still haunts him is that if he would have walked 10 more feet he would have seen this guy's car and he would have known who did this to his friend amber or maybe it would have never happened at all because he saw the car and that john would have known that also true her

[23:06] thing that he [23:08] thinks about constantly and something that just eats away at him day after day. [23:14] Starting a new business can be intimidating. I mean, the amount of tasks you have to juggle can get overwhelming quickly. And it's like you have to be an expert in everything all at once. I mean, you think when I started Crime Junkie, I thought I would be running a merch store one day? I know. But when that day came, before I could even hire help, I had to expertly run a merch store. And I did it with Shopify. And you know what? It doesn't matter how big we've grown, how many team members we have who are actual experts now. [23:43] Shopify drives e-commerce, whether you're a household name like AudioCheck now, or if you're a creator just getting started like I was eight years ago. The platform acts as your built-in business partner and simplifies all your tasks. Imagine the ease of building your dream store with hundreds of beautiful templates, leverage AI writing tools for product descriptions and photo enhancements in seconds. You can even create email and social campaigns with ease. [24:13] Shopify and start hearing? Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash crime junkie. Go to shopify.com slash crime junkie. That's shopify.com slash crime junkie. [24:29] Chime is changing the way that people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking built for you. Chime has thousands of fee-free ATMs. Like, why pay to get your own money? Plus, you can get savings that grow faster with a 3.75% APY. That is nine times higher than the national average. Chime members can even staff benefits, like up to $1,150 in annual rewards,

[24:58] premium travel perks. Their Spot Me feature even lets you overdraft up to $200. And all of that is without fees. There is nothing not to like about this. It is clear why Chime is rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. Real humans 24-7. When you switch, you're not just switching banks. You are upgrading to America's number one choice for banking with a Chime checking account. Chime's not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. [25:28] banking fee free today head to chime.com slash crime junkie that's chime.com slash crime junkie it only takes a few minutes to sign up chime is a fintech not a bank banking services for my pay and chime card provided by chimes bank partners optional products and services may have fees or charges stated annual percentage yield and cash back for chime prime only no minimum balance required checking account ranking based on a jd power survey published october 20 2025 for more information on apy rates my pay spot me and travel perks go to chime.com slash disclosures [25:54] So other than knowing he's someone who has the ability to come off normal and make girls feel comfortable, they don't have much else, except they have one giant freaking clip. [26:07] Remember the first victim that was found, Melissa? Yeah. The killer had been using her cell phone to call Melissa's little sister. Oh my God, what was he saying? Well, he would call her not once, but a few times. And this actually happened before the murder investigation. This was just while Melissa was missing. Her family hadn't been able to get a hold of her for a while.

[26:37] gets this call on her phone. And the caller ID pops up saying that it's Melissa calling her. So immediately she's like, thank God she's okay. She picks up the phone and on the other end isn't Melissa. [26:52] It's a guy. And he just says all of these vulgar things to her, asking her if she's a whore like her sister. And he shares a lot of personal information about Melissa, about Amanda, that she's not a guy. [27:06] He shouldn't have known, but he always keeps his calls short, less than 90 seconds. He always keeps his calls between 5.30 p.m. and 6.30 p.m., like the time someone would be getting off of work. And every time he calls, he calls from a heavily populated area so that when police would try and go back and trace the pings on the cell phone to see where the calls were coming from, [27:36] all. [27:36] All of those calls... [27:38] fit the same pattern except for the last one. The last time he called Amanda, he said, I finally killed your sister, and I am watching her body rot. And when police traced this last call, they found out that he had actually made this call from Gilgo Beach, where her body was later found. Oh my God, is this their guy? It is. But the press get wind of these calls, and they publish this,

[28:08] calling immediately and police lose the only connection they had to their killer. Once this happens, the case kind of stalls out for a bit until the spring when police can get back out into the marsh and keep searching. And on March 29th of 2011, police find a skull, hands, and a forearm. And these remains were found on Ocean Parkway near the initial Gilgo Beach 4, but they [28:38] away about three quarters of a mile from the others but she appears to fit the same profile were the remains wrapped in burlap too no that's the strange thing she's not in burlap like the yogo beach four she isn't in that same row that the killer placed the other four girls in either and most notably this victim has been dismembered and only part of her remains are found whereas in [29:08] is that police uncover something chilling. These body parts that they just found are matched to a torso that was found way back in 2003, in a city way inland in Long Island called Manorville. [29:22] And this girl's name, when they find her torso, they figure out her name is Jessica. And Jessica is also an escort who is using Craigslist or Backpage for her services. The police keep searching along the beach. And on April 4th of 2011, they come across three more body parts. Another skull, hands, and a foot that belonged to another victim that had a torso left in Manorville.

[29:52] and she is only known as the Manorville Jane Doe. Again, she matches that profile of a young Caucasian woman who's likely an escort, but near the same area and a little bit farther down towards Oak Beach, police find two more bodies that are totally different from anything they found. They find the body of a young Asian male. He's intact and dressed in female clothing, [30:22] the body of an unidentified baby girl between the ages of 16 months and 32 months. Or if you speak in years, like someone who hasn't had a baby, that's between one and three years old. This is eight victims now. And to try and help everyone get a visual and keep this straight, because I've been deep in this for weeks now, and it's still hard for me. Imagine that you're sitting [30:52] facing Long Island. There's a skinny, long strip of land in front of you. And on this land has three beaches. [31:00] The left is Jones Beach, the middle is Gilgo Beach, and the right is Oak Beach. In the middle on Gilgo Beach is where the Gilgo Beach 4 were found and all clustered really close together. [31:14] Then a little to the right... [31:17] You have the Asian male [31:19] A little to the right of him is where parts of Jessica were found, and she was one of the ones whose torso was found in Manorville.

[31:27] Then even farther to the right of her, you have the Manorville Jane Doe and the baby Doe. And both of them are so far to the right that they're almost on Oak Beach. And just something to note, even though Manorville Jane Doe and baby Doe were placed close together, they did a DNA test and they have no relation. So that's eight victims. Are you with me so far? I think so. [31:58] police find two more sets of remains in two sections. [32:02] separate areas. This time is on Jones Beach, which is the beach to the left of Gilgo Beach, if you're still sitting in that boat looking on the land. One of the remains is the bones and jewelry of a woman who ends up being linked by DNA to that baby that was found all the way on the other side of the island. And the second skull that's found is linked to a set of legs [32:33] 96? Yeah, so it keeps getting farther and farther back. Oh my God. And in all, we have 10 bodies... [32:41] and still a missing Shannon Gilbert. After all these bodies were found, there was a rift between prosecutor's office and the police department because they were running on two different theories. Starting a new business can be intimidating. I mean, the amount of tasks you have to juggle can get overwhelming quickly. And it's like you have to be an expert in everything all at once. I mean, you think when I started Crime Junkie, I thought I would be running a merch store one day? I know.

[33:11] I had to expertly run a merch store, and I did it with Shopify. [33:15] And you know what? It doesn't matter how big we've grown, how many team members we have who are actual experts now. We still use Shopify. Shopify drives e-commerce, whether you're a household name like AudioCheck now or if you're a creator just getting started like I was eight years ago. The platform acts as your built in business partner and simplifies all your tasks. [33:45] seconds. You can even create email and social campaigns with ease. So start your business today with the industry's best partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash crime junkie. Go to Shopify.com slash crime junkie. That's Shopify.com slash crime junkie. [34:07] Chime is changing the way that people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking built for you. Chime has thousands of fee-free ATMs. Like, why pay to get your own money? Plus, you can get savings that grow faster with a 3.75% APY. That is nine times higher than the national average. Chime members can even staff benefits, like up to $1,150 in annual rewards, [34:37] premium travel perks. Their spot me feature even lets you overdraft up to $200. And all of that is without fees. There is nothing not to like about this. It is clear why Chime is rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. Real humans 24-7. When you switch, you're not just switching banks. You are upgrading to America's number one choice for banking with a Chime checking account. Chime's not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are

[35:07] banking fee free today head to chime.com slash crime junkie that's chime.com slash crime junkie it only takes a few minutes to sign up chime is a fintech not a bank banking services for my pay and chime card provided by chimes bank partners optional products and services may have fees or charges stated annual percentage yield and cash back for chime prime only no minimum balance required checking account ranking based on a jd power survey published october 20 2025 for more information on apy rates my pay spot me and travel perks go to chime.com slash disclosures [35:33] The Suffolk County Police Department Commissioner at the time, Richard Dormer, thought this was one single serial killer and Shannon might not even be involved at all. While the district attorney said that they thought it was two killers and didn't say what he thought happened to Shannon. So that has to be a little bit confusing when you have two people involved in the case thinking that it should go in completely different directions, right? Yeah, I think it confused the investigation and the public. [36:03] to be catching this guy, not even agreeing on how many guys they're supposed to be catching. And it doesn't give you a lot of faith in the system. I can see both sides of it, though. On one hand, what are the odds that all of these women in the exact same profession end up dead at the exact same places? Right. But on the other side, there are two very different patterns here. It was explained best by an amateur profiler named Peter, who said we have two distinct [36:33] the Gilgal Beach Four. He thinks they were killed by a, quote, trophy killer, meaning that the way a hunter would put deer heads on his wall, this guy probably lined up all of his victims in an orderly way. And he thinks he did it so he could maybe even drive by and see them like mounted, per se. And he says the others around the Gilgal Beach Four were killed by what he calls a torso

[37:03] what it sounds like. Yeah, apparently it's a very specific type of killer who dismembers their victims and likes to put their torsos on display for people to find. Those torsos in Manorville were right in the open. One of them was even found on a golf course. Okay, but what are the odds, though, that both guys had the same kind of victims and used the same location for a dumping ground? Well, it depends on how you look at it. The victims were similar in that they were all [37:33] Gilgo Beach 4 were very distinct. They were all young in their early 20s and all very petite, some barely even 100 pounds. Now, granted, we don't know who all of the other victims even were in life. Some of them are still Jane Doe's or John Doe's, but there was a mother and her daughter and even the Asian male who everyone assumes was a crossdresser and then was killed because he wasn't the kind of victim the killer wanted. So they all have the same profession, but they're [38:03] that unfortunately makes them easy targets. It's not wild to think that more than one serial killer is going after a group of women who have been marginalized by society because... [38:12] I mean, he was right. Police didn't really take notice when these girls went missing. And it let him, or however many hims there are, get away with killing for years. Okay, I agree with the different profiles, but I have to go back to saying, like, real estate in New York is kind of scarce. But what are the odds that the same place is the dumping ground? Well, people who are pro the one killer theory say there's no way that would happen. And that alone proves that it's just one guy.

[38:42] No matter how different the victims or their body disposal, there's no way. The coincidence is too big. It has to be one person. The justification for the difference in disposals are this for those people. They say that the killer got more sophisticated and he got comfortable with killing as time went on. Some of the bones of the victims who weren't part of the Gilgo Beach 4 were linked to body parts found as early as 96 and 2000. [39:12] went missing between 2007 and 2010. So the Gilgo Beach Four were his latest victims. It could have been that he used to dismember them all, scatter their body parts to prevent identification, and then keep evidence away for himself. But as he became more confident, he didn't think he would get caught. So he didn't need to go through all the rigmarole of dismemberment and spreading everything around. Okay, so then why go through it? [39:37] If you can just bury them in one place and keep your collection together, if you will. Well, exactly. People say he'd already been using that spot to get rid of parts of the body that weren't the torso. And they literally went a decade without ever being found. So he figured it was a safe place. Yeah, I guess that's possible. So what's the theory of the two killer theory? Like, what do most people believe that it was just a coincidence because it's kind of off the beaten path area or? [40:07] out there who thinks that, that it just happened that two different men use the same remote dumping ground? Because again, it's really remote, no streetlights, totally dark and desolate with that thorny brush that no one is going to walk through and go looking for anything. It's a good spot if you were going to hide a body. It's not implausible to think that two awful people had the same awful idea. But the idea a lot of people ascribe to, and the one that I find most interesting, is that

[40:37] and they didn't find the same dumping ground by accident. There's a trophy killer who murdered the Gilgo Beach Four, and the torso killer who murdered the other six victims. And if there are two, their psychologies are very different. The trophy killer is quiet, he's selfish, he's not flashy. Killing is for him and him alone, which is why his trophies are in a place that only he knows about, that only he can visit, and that are all his. [41:07] The torso killer, on the other hand, loves attention. That's why he left the torsos in public places. And that's part of what he gets off on. It's like the shock and awe of it and all of the media attention. So when the Gilgal Beach Four are found and the whole nation is in an uproar about a serial killer, the torso killer gets pissed. He's just super jealous that no one's talking about him and what he's done. [41:37] It was his way of lashing out. There was a new kid on the block that everyone's talking about, and he essentially wanted to, like, pee on his territory and call it dibs. As the investigation goes on, through the summer, through the fall, and into the winter, Shannon's family is still pushing for police to search for her. Of everyone that's been found, she still hasn't, and it's a cloud that lingers over the entire investigation.

[42:07] house. And on December 13th, many of the victim's family actually gathered together to hold a vigil for the girls. It's the one year anniversary of when they were all found. And while they're there, [42:18] searchers find shannon's remains her mom mary was there and they actually took her to dr hackett's back porch which gave her the best view of that area where she was found so she could watch the crime scene technicians so the best view police had overlooking shannon's remains was from creepy dr hackett's house yeah it's a little weird isn't it i i can't with this like [42:49] No, no. I know. He throws up a lot of red flags, but police still say he's cleared. And I don't think it sticks with most people like it does you and me, because they say, you know, why on earth if he did it, why would he leave her so close to his house? I mean, she wasn't found for a long time, right? Well, before we get too far into speculation about who, we should talk about how she was found. [43:18] child but farthest away from all the other victims she's found laying face up and she isn't found wrapped in anything or dismembered like any of the other victims a quarter mile from where she was found they find her belongings which include her jeans that appeared to be removed by her before there's even an autopsy performed the police commissioner dormer is already talking about it being an accident it's gotten out that shannon had a history of bipolar disorder

[43:48] mental illness combined with drug use or alcohol use caused her to have an episode that night and run into the marsh where it's assumed she succumbed to the elements and just died. So even by the time they did an autopsy, they couldn't determine the cause of death. But the theory was that she had a psychotic episode, got confused and disoriented and ran into the marsh. They say it can get super cold on the island at night and even in May. So what they suspect is that she could [44:19] But I think that's like, to me, I can't imagine it being so cold in May anywhere that I should make like that you suffer from hypothermia. That seems like really cold. But they say that she probably suffered from hypothermia, fell down and drowned in the six to eight inches of water, even though she was found face up. Okay. Okay. [44:35] The only thing missing from her body was her hyoid bone, which is very small and can be carried away easily by animals or have even gotten lost in that marsh. But... [44:46] A missing hyoid can also indicate strangulation, which is why Shannon's family didn't agree with the coroner's findings when in 2012 her death is ruled accidental. They tested the exterior of her remains for drugs and they didn't find any. And they used these findings to say that she wasn't on drugs that night. But they could have tested her bone marrow to really make a definitive proclamation. And they didn't do that at all. And I'm not sure why, because I think that leaves a lot of questions for people. She was left in a very... [45:16] desolate area with the salt water and the wind. And I don't think that anything found on her bones is a good indicator of whether or not she was on drugs. It was concluded by most people that Shannon's death likely had nothing to do with the other murders. And it was just one of the most bizarre coincidences that led to the discovery of a serial killer. I'd be interested in knowing what Shannon's family thinks of all this. Well, they never believed that it was an accident. They

[45:46] They eventually had a second autopsy done by the New York City Medical Examiner, and his ruling was that there's insufficient evidence to determine any definite cause of death. But he does note that the autopsy findings are consistent with strangulation, and they think Dr. Hackett is responsible for that strangulation. [46:16] dumped her in his marsh yeah that's what doesn't make any sense for it to work there has to be this big cover-up conspiracy with everyone on oak beach in on it and it's just so unlikely there's a couple of people this one specific family actually who believes that everyone on the island is like conspiring together to be shannon's killer or a serial killer i don't really know but it doesn't make any sense when you try and put all the pieces together plus people have retraced where shannon [46:46] And that marsh area is super difficult to walk through. So forget trying to carry a body. It's just not even possible. Shannon fit the profile of the Gilgo Peach killer like to a T. But she had a driver. All of the other girls were lured away. And I hate believing this was just an accident that led to something so much bigger. But it's the only thing that makes sense. So I think I agree with what the police are saying. So wait, what about her 911 call?

[47:16] connects all of this, right? Well, I think this is part of the reason that people can't let Shannon's case go, even after her death was ruled an accident. [47:27] and her case was closed, the police refused to release the audio. And to this day, no one outside of law enforcement has ever heard the call, not even her family. I'm not the biggest fan of listening to 911 calls, but as of right now, it's the only one I ever want to hear. I know. I think it would put so many questions to bed if they would release this call, [47:57] She was having a psychotic break. One theory that people have of why they're keeping this audio so close to the vest is that because she originally said she was on a different beach, they think maybe she got bounced around a lot to a lot of different people like, oh, you're not my jurisdiction, you're someone else's. [48:16] So it's like an error on their part. Right, and it's just... [48:20] bad they look bad because this girl ended up dying because they couldn't get her help because they had no idea where she was and no one was really helping her they were just pushing her off on somebody else but i don't know that for a fact at all the little bit of the transcript that her family got to see just said that she was screaming saying someone was trying to kill her [48:41] In 2015, the FBI finally joined the investigation. They were kept at an arm's length by the DA and the police because at the time...

[48:51] This is all going on. The cherry on top of this screwed up Sunday was there was crazy corruption going on inside the police department. Apparently, the chief of Suffolk County had a history with drinking and driving while on the job, drugs, and he had a history with a lot of the prostitutes in the area. So because he has a history with exact type of girl whose deaths he's investigating, it doesn't look good. But he was never a suspect, right? [49:21] They think that they just kept the FBI out so that they wouldn't see everything that's going on just to kind of protect their own butts. A lot of people, though, think that it had to have been someone in law enforcement or at least someone familiar with law enforcement policies because of how he knew to make the calls to the victim's family and not get caught and how he could hide his IP address. Stuff like that, but nothing solid. Were there any solid suspects besides the residents of Oak Beach that were cleared? [49:51] and Joe, that guy that Shannon went to see that night. The names that come up as suspects the most are James Bissett and John Bittrell. John's story is kind of crazy because he was a family man with no violent criminal history, and his brother was arrested for violating a protection order. Well, when his brother got arrested and they took his brother's DNA, they entered it into the system, and it matched the rape and murder of two women

[50:21] But the brother wasn't a total match. The match popped up as being a partial and meaning that it's someone related to this guy. And sure enough, when they tested it, it was actually John's DNA. And he lived just a few miles from where the torsos were discovered. And in an even stranger turn of events, his daughter grew up to be the best friend of Melissa. [50:51] was called all those times, and police always wondered how the killer knew so much about Melissa and her sister. Oh my god, that could totally explain it, right? Right, but police haven't actually called him a suspect. The other guy, James Bessette, he owned a nursery on Long Island which gave him access to the same kind of burlap sack that the Gilgo Beach 4 were found in, and speculation around him really grew when he committed suicide a few days after Shannon's [51:21] said if he's their guy either. [51:24] It could be both, though, right? James could be the trophy killer and John the torso killer? Ooh, true! Were there any other names linked to this? [51:32] The only other name that really gets thrown out a lot is Neil Falls. Neil Falls. That just sounds like a killer name. Is it just me or was he connected to something else? No, his name's familiar because there was a ton of media around him in 2015. At that time, he was in West Virginia and he went to the home of a sex worker named Heather. And while there, he pulled a gun on her. They fought and Heather ended up shooting Neil in the head. Okay, then. Oh, yeah, she got him.

[52:02] they found four sets of handcuffs on him. And then in his car was a machete, axes, knives, a shovel, a sledgehammer, bleach, plastic trash bags, bulletproof vests, and clean white socks and underwear. I don't know if anyone's marketed it like this, but I'm pretty sure that's a serial killer starter pack. Exactly. He's still being investigated as a person of interest in the case [52:32] escorts across like eight different states. Oh my God. Everyone was saying that he was Lisk, but the truth is that he's probably not. Lisk never went to the girls' homes and police, I'm sure, would love to close this case. So if they investigated him, which I know they did, and they're not saying they have their guy, then it's probably not the guy. I think the truth's like a lot sadder. The truth is truly too many depraved men are taking advantage of these women [53:02] easy and society refuses to take notice when they're gone. So what now? What now is that this is just one of the biggest American serial killer mysteries ever. I can't. Do you think he's done? Like, is it over? Do you think he stopped killing? Absolutely not. In fact, I'm not even sure if Long Island is really him starting his killing. People point to every single rash of murders of prostitutes and wonder if it's Lisk, but he's not everywhere. In fact, some people even said that

[53:32] was the same West Mesa bone collector that we talked about in episode four. Yeah, but I mean, they're totally different cases. They have different profiles. There was one case, though, that's just too familiar to not tie the list. And it's the case of the eastbound strangler. In 2006, four women who were later identified as escorts were found in a drainage ditch behind the [54:02] fancy, but I assure you... [54:04] It's one of those sketchy one-story motels on the side of the road, which you should never, ever stay in. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. [54:13] Can we make that our crime junkie life rule? I should not have to tell people this. But yes, crime junkie life rule number seven. In case you ever thought about it, just don't. I don't care how much money you're saving. You won't need that money when you're murdered by a serial killer. Because that's exactly what happens when you stay in these highway motels. They should just call them murder motels. It's catchy and it's accurate. Murder motels. Murder motels. But all of these girls were found behind this motel. [54:43] All were placed face down, about 60 feet apart from one another, [54:48] all in a row and all oh not creepy at all oh it gets creepier all with their heads facing east towards atlantic city and they were all still clothed but had their socks and shoes removed and the cause of death was ruled strangulation for all of them so on the timeline when was this in relation to lisk well the bodies in atlantic city were found in 2006 then the first lisk

[55:18] beach victim went missing in 2007. I'm sorry, what? I know, it's a little too similar. Four victims, all escorts, all placed in a row. The eastbound victims and the Gilgo girls were different, but each set of four was exactly the same. Almost like he was just trying something out, like a new collection. Yeah, kinda. Which makes me really wonder something. If he's the same guy, [55:48] city after four and moved his burial ground to Gilgal Beach, did Lisk stop because he reached four and moved on to somewhere else? Or did he stop because the girls were found? Oh my God. Like this, this whole story is like... [56:05] two and a half seasons worth of Dexter, I feel like. [56:08] It's a lot. I mean, we're talking about multiple killers. We're talking about 10 list victims, four in Atlantic City, Shannon Gilbert, who went missing. It's just, it's a lot. It's crazy. Well, and there's ritualistic killings in some of them. There's a lot of patterns, but then there aren't. It's, [56:24] baffling. I know. So from what you've heard, Britt, what do you think? Are you on board with the one killer theory or two? I really think after what you've presented today, I think there were two killers. I think so too. And I don't know what happened with this torso killer. That amateur psychologist that I talked about earlier, Peter, in a documentary I watched, he thinks that the

[56:54] that he can even see him like going after the trophy killer but i always wonder if there could be more sets of four out there i mean i i think these cases the atlantic city and the gilgo beach four feel very very similar too similar to not be connected and it took a lot for the gilgo beach four to be found i think if shannon never went missing i'm not sure if she was a girl who would [57:18] we would probably never find them. So I have to wonder if there are other areas where four girls remain together. So that was a lot of stories. There was Shannon's story. There was Lisk, which might be two separate stories. I told you Neil Falls. I told you the Eastbound Strangler. So I feel like that means I get to take next week off. No, I think you'd have an angry mob of crime junkies after us if we did that. I think so, too. I'll come back. I'll tell you another one next week. [57:48] All right, I'll be back next week with a new story. But in the meantime, you guys, I feel like I barely scraped the surface with this case. There is so much to this that people have literally dedicated their lives to it. If you want to know more about Lisk, the Long Island serial killer, and the events surrounding the girls' disappearances, you have to read what is considered the Lisk Bible. [58:18] Lost Girls, an unsolved American mystery by Robert Colker. And you can get it for free with our 30 day free trial of Audible. Just go to audibletrial.com slash crimejunkie. I've listened to the book twice, read it once. I find something new every single time. So go read it so we can chat about it in the Facebook discussion group. Crime Junkie is written and hosted by me. All of

[58:48] including our theme comes from justin daniel crime junkie is an audio chuck production so what do you think chuck do you approve [59:01] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [59:19] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. [59:23] I think you'll love it too. [59:24] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.