MURDERED: Russell and Shirley Dermond

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. Every now and then, there are crime stories that really stick with you. And sometimes it's because the victim reminds you of someone you know, like a parent or grandparent. But other times, it's because the specific details of the crimes are so horrific that you can't stop thinking about what the victim's last moments must have been like. Today's episode focuses on a story that [01:00] remind me of my own grandparents and a crime so gruesome that it keeps me up at night. This is the story of the Lake Oconee murders. [01:10] Music

[01:41] Russell and Shirley Dermon were an elderly couple that lived along scenic Lake Oconee in the middle of Putnam County, Georgia. Now, this is about an hour east of Atlanta and is a pretty affluent area. The Dermons were enjoying basically a cozy post-retirement lifestyle in their four-bedroom home that was valued around a million dollars. The two were both originally from New Jersey and they'd been married for over 60 years. [02:11] for a clock manufacturer. Shirley, meanwhile, took the role of housewife and took charge raising their four kids. But in the late 1980s, they relocated their family to Georgia for Russell's, you know, quote, semi-retirement. Oh, what's semi-retirement? Because that kind of sounds awesome. Sign me up. Apparently, Russell was tired of basically the daily grind and he wanted to move to a more like casual line of work. So in the 1980s, they moved to Georgia, this like city on [02:41] outskirts of Atlanta and Russell began managing a chain of Hardee's fast food restaurants and a couple of their kids actually helped manage the restaurants and slowly like Russell began to like take more of a backseat he backed up further and further and further until he was like in retirement which is exactly what he wanted. [02:57] In 1999, the two had started making plans to move to a gated community nearby an expensive golf course next to Lake Oconee. Russell loved playing golf, so it seemed like a matchmate in heaven. As they're planning this move, the family is struck by tragedy. Their oldest son, Mark, was killed while trying to purchase drugs near Atlanta. Now, his killer was found and convicted, but I think that kind of expedited their move away from the big city.

[03:27] they made that move. Their home was a decent size lakeside estate, which had its own private dock, was surrounded by trees and located in this very safe gated community, allowing the two, like I said, this is cozy private retirement filled with long walks and reading and crossword puzzles. Over the 14 years that they spent there, they had become embedded in the community. They were, you know, relatively private people, but they regularly attended church. They had their [03:57] mostly because I love playing cards. It's all I want to do when I get old. But they loved their home so much, in fact, that they told their children that when they passed, they wanted their ashes spread on Lake Okanee. But no one... [04:09] expected that time to come so abruptly and under such bizarre circumstances. Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 was the date of the 140th Kentucky Derby, which is a major horse racing event, and Russell and Shirley were supposed to attend a neighbor's Kentucky Derby watch party, but the two were no-shows, which was very unlike them. Like, normally they would have called or even, [04:36] You know, the friends know that life happens. You know, it happens all the time. So no alarm bells were raised by their friends right away. However, when the entire day passed and then Sunday rolled around and their friends still hadn't heard anything from them about why they missed the party, they start to try to call them a couple of times, actually, but they were never able to make contact with the couple. So Monday comes and then goes.

[05:06] their house, which was kind of again hidden in the back of that cul-de-sac. As they approached the house, [05:12] they noticed something strange in the driveway. There was today's paper. [05:18] but also Monday's paper as well. The concern for the couple is growing as they make their way up the drive to the front door. And they knock a couple of times. Shirley? [05:30] Russell. [05:31] but they're getting no response. [05:34] When they reach for the handle and find that the door is unlocked, they decide to go inside. They begin searching the home, looking for any sign of either Shirley or Russell. But when there was no sign of either one of them anywhere, they make their way out to the garage. And that is where they made a discovery that would horrify them. And fair warning, you guys, I really don't like going into super gory details of crime cases. [06:04] circumstances of the crime and what kind of perpetrator that we're looking for. [06:08] Now Russell and Shirley's two vehicles were still parked in the garage, but laying on the floor of the garage was a body. Now the neighbors believed it was the body of Russell, [06:19] but they couldn't be sure. And that's because whoever it was had been decapitated, and the head was nowhere at the scene. They didn't look any further. The two fled the house and just moments later placed a call to 911. And so began one of the most terrifying and mysterious investigations that any of these officers would be part of. Police quickly identified the murder victim as 88-year-old Russell Dermond,

[06:49] and whose head was just... [06:52] gone. And as if that were not concerning enough, just like Russell's head, his 87 year old wife, Shirley, [06:59] was gone as well, and police could find no trace of either. [07:04] This heinous murder immediately alarmed investigators who had never witnessed a crime of this magnitude in the quiet community before. — [07:12] They quickly set out to uncover what exactly had happened, but it was hard because there wasn't much in the way of evidence. [07:20] What they could determine was that Russell had been decapitated in the spot where his body was found, in the middle of the garage between the couple's two cars. Now, he had been found lying on his back in a pool of his own blood, which had begun to dry up around him. [07:36] Police later disclosed that whoever had committed this decapitation act had strategically placed towels around the body to prevent the blood from spilling out underneath the garage door and down the driveway. And I think that was probably so that they could delay when the bodies would be found. Now, let me clarify something because I said he was decapitated there. However, that does not mean he was murdered there. But we're going to get back to that in just a little bit. When they searched the house, it didn't provide much in the way of evidence. [08:06] didn't seem to be any sign of forced entry and really there wasn't any sign of motive either. Was like anything valuable missing? So weirdly enough it doesn't seem like anything was missing from their home and they weren't known to keep anything in their home worth taking anyways like they didn't keep large amounts of cash or jewelry and in fact not only was there nothing there with taking but the house itself seemed to be untouched and nearly spotless and that's the word the police

[08:36] even quoted as saying like you could have eaten off the floor. [08:39] It was pristine and untouched. Investigators begin trying to piece together the five W's of any crime investigation. The who, what, where, when, and of course, the all-important why. Because the why will usually lead you to everything else. But as they tried to figure out the minute details of this case, detectives also began working with local police on the real pressing issue. [09:03] Where was Shirley? Her purse and her phone were both left inside the home, so whoever had taken her didn't seem to have taken any of her things. Police launched an extensive search in the surrounding area, combing the land, the lakes, they're using dogs, big search equipment, looking for any sign. And again, they're looking for both Shirley and Russell's head. All the while, friends and family and authorities were praying to find Shirley alive. [09:30] Almost right away, billboards were secured all throughout the state with Shirley's picture on it, many of them reading missing and in danger or foul play suspected. And a number was given for the public to call police if they knew anything. They were operating under the belief that Shirley had been kidnapped. But... [09:49] It would be several days before her true fate was finally learned. [09:55] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. So,

[10:14] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [10:21] wherever you get your podcasts. [10:25] On Friday, May 16th, 10 days after the discovery of Russell's remains, fishermen discovered a body floating face down in the lake. It was later determined to be Shirley, who had bloated to nearly twice her original size due to the time spent in the water. And this led police to believe that she'd been out there for some time, if not the entire time since Russell had been murdered. The discovery took place only about five miles away from the couple's lakeside property. But why didn't they find her right away? [10:55] I thought you said that they had searched the lakes. So they did, but Shirley's body had been weighed down with concrete blocks, which had been tied to her ankles with ropes. Whoever had killed her had pulled her out to one of the deepest parts of the entire lake, with her body being submerged under nearly 50 feet of water before eventually surfacing. Unlike her husband, Shirley had not been decapitated, but she appeared to have died from a head injury. [11:25] in the head with an object that resembled a claw hammer. And thankfully, there were no signs of sexual assault having taken place. In the following days, police would conduct extensive searches in the area where Shirley's body was found, hoping to find either a murder weapon or even her husband's head. Again, if Shirley's here, they would be able to find a murder weapon. [11:44] they kind of assumed that they would find that too. Right.

[11:48] they were unsuccessful in finding either his head or the murder weapon. [11:53] The investigation itself was headed by Putnam County Sheriff's Office, who early on obtained assistance from their local police departments as well as the FBI. They were able to gain access to the Dermans' personal information, including, like, you know, phone records, bank records, all of the if I go missing stuff, dating back years. And they were hopeful that there might be some clue in there that would lead them to a culprit. [12:23] perpetrated on them. But unfortunately, there seemed to have not been a single smoking gun, like nothing that even smelled fishy. And there was nothing in either Shirley or Russell's life that was pointing to anyone who would want to do this to them. Investigators set out to create a timeline for when the events might have taken place. And they kind of started to work backwards in their lives. Now, they found out that in the days leading up to their deaths, it was pretty [12:53] visits with friends. The last time police can confirm that the two were absolutely alive was Friday, May 2nd. Russell was spotted by a neighbor taking a walk in the neighborhood, which he did very regularly, and surely had finished a crossword puzzle from that day's newspaper. But their trail ends there. Nobody had any confirmed sightings or conversations with the Dermans after that Friday,

[13:23] Neighbors didn't report hearing any commotion next door, like at all. So police... [13:28] basically had to guess when the killer had decided to strike. [13:32] Now, their best estimate was that this killer likely struck early the next day, Saturday, May 3rd, which was the same day as the Kentucky Derby party that they had missed. Right. They came to this belief because the mail in their mailbox dated back to Saturday. And they think it was very early because Shirley's body, when she was found, she was in her normal, like, everyday clothes, dressed like she might even be going somewhere or just, like, ready for the day. But Russell's body was found wearing his pajamas. [14:02] a random question. You said that was a gated community, right? Yeah, yeah. Were there any security cameras? So actually, yes, there were. The gated community that Russell and Shirley lived in did have security cameras at the entrance, which recorded each person that was driving in. I mean, that seems like a logical place to start when you're looking for who could have done this, right? Right. It does. But... [14:23] How many times have we seen this? No, it got recorded over. Well, not even that. Police learned almost immediately that these cameras were not working at the time. They apparently had shorted out a few weeks prior due to a storm that hit the region. And this was only discovered after the body was found and they wanted the tape. So no one even knew. Yeah, it wasn't even a problem that anyone was aware of until it was too late. If anyone had been checking up on this, we might have something. [14:50] So during this time, literally anybody could have driven through the neighborhood and not been recorded or spotted, right? Oh, absolutely. But...

[14:57] Even if the cameras were working, I'm not sure that they would have helped in this case because police believe that whoever killed the couple likely didn't drive into the neighborhood. In fact, they might have come from the exact opposite direction because police believe that they approached the house from the lake. [15:18] you [15:19] Lake Oconee is an incredibly large lake with a surface area of like 19,000 acres, which stretched across four counties. And the shoreline itself spans a length of nearly 400 miles, meaning that searches of the area required a lot of manpower and a lot of time. But this isn't like some tiny private lake. Anyone can have access to it. Now, the couple's estate had a private dock with a walkway that led up to the house itself. [15:49] that the killer had approached the house from the water using a boat and then entered the house through the back. And if so, [15:57] no one would have seen them. Because again, remember, Russell and Shirley's home was pretty secluded in that far corner of the cul-de-sac. Yeah. Now this theory is just compounded when you think about where Shirley was found in the middle of that lake. [16:11] Because you see, the Dermans didn't own a boat at the time of the murders. So the killer would have had to bring their own boat to dispose of Shirley. Exactly. It would have been nearly impossible to move her body where it was found without a boat. And while we're talking about Shirley and where she was found, like, let's jump back to the crime scene and talk about where and how she was killed, because it's not quite as straightforward as you might think. I mentioned that Shirley had died from blunt force trauma

[16:41] used an instrument that was similar to a hammer. And again, we know this because of injuries found on her body after it was discovered. But again, if you remember, there was nothing at the crime scene to indicate this. If you were going to take a hammer to someone's skull, you would expect to see some very large blood spatter stains wherever the crime took place. But there wasn't a scene like this in the house anywhere. [17:04] Aside from Russell's blood in the garage, the rest of the property, like I said, was spotless. Nothing in the house indicating that there were two brutal murders. So we're missing a huge piece of this puzzle, a huge W. We're missing the where. Okay, so this means that the two were taken out of the home immediately. [17:24] killed [17:25] And then they brought Russell back to the house and decapitated him in the garage? Yeah. This is literally one of the most insane crime scenes I think I've ever heard of. Oh, my God. I know. Again, this is the one that, like, it keeps staying with me, keeps me up at night. Okay. So if Russell was decapitated after his death, how did they determine his cause of death? Were there any other wounds on the body? So, no, not from what I can tell. They knew for sure, based on his autopsy, that he was already deceased before the decapitation. Okay. [17:55] Because they didn't have any marks on his body, the assumption was something likely happened to his head, which they couldn't find. So is the assumption that he died the same way Shirley did with the blunt force trauma to the head? No, actually. Russell's shirt gave them a little clue about his death. Apparently, there was gunpowder residue found on just the collar. So the assumption is that he was shot. And another thing to note, which doesn't give us any real clues, but maybe tells us a little more about the who.

[18:25] The cut to Russell's neck was incredibly clean, not necessarily surgical, mind you, just very neat as if the killer had really taken their time to do this heinous, horrible thing. And they hadn't been rushed at all. And whoever did this likely used the collar of Russell's T-shirt as a guide. And they used an incredibly sharp knife. Okay, but I don't get it. [18:48] If Russell was shot in the head, why would the killer then spend all this meticulous time decapitating him? So that's probably the biggest question plaguing this case. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps when they shot Russell, the bullet got lodged in his head. And the killer feared that somehow maybe the bullet could be traced back to them. Yeah. And you talked about all the W questions earlier. [19:14] Honestly, more than who or why, [19:18] My question is where? And that's something that police have had to grapple with in this case. The where could tell them who if they could find it, but they couldn't. So again, what I keep coming back to and what I think solving this case is dependent on is the why. Like I said earlier, robbery wasn't the motive because nothing was taken. And if someone did want money, it didn't make sense to target Russell and Shirley. Like their net worth was around $1.5 million. [19:48] But that included their home, which was more than half of that. So compared to many of their neighbors in this super affluent neighborhood, some of them were like famous musicians and retired executives who were worth much, much more. Like what they had wasn't enough to like.

[20:05] kill them over again if this is truly a random act why wouldn't you go pick one of the more wealthy people in the neighborhood who even had like fancier bigger houses you would assume that they have more money okay can we go back to the crime scene real quick yeah i get that there was no blood but the [20:20] Killer... [20:21] had to have been in the home. Did they find any kind of forensic evidence there? You know, the law enforcement officials have been pretty mum about all of that, but it doesn't seem so. They've definitely stated that no unexplained fingerprints were found inside the house, but they've stated repeatedly that the crime scene was spotless. Again, that's the word they use, spotless. So if I had to guess, I'd say no. But it's interesting that you bring that up because [20:51] sheriff with a mustache who's photographed smoking cigars all the time. And he's the one that's been overseeing the case from the beginning. And I think he might have something up his sleeve. [21:03] you [21:04] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct.

[21:34] million people globally. Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and if you aren't happy with your match you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's betterhelp.com [22:04] This sheriff has mentioned once or twice over the years having some kind of forensic evidence which he wants to get retested. What kind of evidence? Unfortunately, I don't know. [22:16] I have no clue. All the articles ever say is, quote, forensic evidence. And that's it. The sheriff has tried really hard not to tip his hand toward anything specific. And it's really a double edged sword. Like. [22:30] in any crime investigation. Police want to reveal enough information that will help them find the suspect, but as we know, at the same time they don't want to reveal so much that the case would fall apart during prosecution. So he's been pretty tight-lipped about this specific detail regarding any evidence, but [22:44] honestly, like it doesn't to me seem like the police have much. You know, Ashley, this reminds me a lot of the Andrea DeGelder case that we just did for the fan club. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the biggest hang up in finding justice there is the GBI just not testing. Right. So for everyone not in the fan club, in that case, they think they like know who they think they have all their W's, but they really want to go to prosecution with this evidence. And they had a ton of forensic

[23:14] backlog that they've been waiting for like a year to get things tested. So we're talking about the same state. If they're using the same crime lab, maybe there is forensic evidence, [23:25] We're just like on some kind of backlog again, or maybe this is like a tactic that they're trying to scare this unknown person and they don't have anything. I don't know. Right. Right. [23:35] But here's one more thing the sheriff has mentioned in the past releases to the press and public. Roughly one year after the murders, he told reporters that police had been told about a man that was spotted on the Dermon property. Specifically, this guy was seen walking on Russell and Shirley's lawn at around the time that the murders took place. [24:05] more information. Him? Yeah. Yeah, him. So like someone specific? Yeah, I mean, I guess it could be because, you know, if it was just like some figure, unknown male is like used a lot. I kept seeing him use maybe, maybe it is unknown and they just know that it's male. But when you bring that up, it kind of brings up something interesting. From what I could find, I don't think they ever like made a sketch, which you would think they would do if they were trying to identify someone [24:35] which means [24:36] it would have been someone that the neighbors had seen before, who were already familiar with. Like if they recognized him, were calling him him, if the neighbors knew him,

[24:46] I mean, I have to wonder then if Russell and Shirley knew him. But again, the sheriff has been so cryptic about all of it that I don't know if our assumptions are right or maybe they didn't even have enough to make a sketch. Like it was just a figure of a man. It was so dark and we're reading way too much into it. I don't know. You know, I will tip my hands a little bit, though. I think they knew who they were looking for because in 2015, Sheriff Sills told reporters that he had a person of interest in the case. [25:16] isn't necessarily a suspect. However, this person of interest had apparently given him and his investigators false information, which they knew at the time to be false. So they know this person's lying to them and why lie if you have nothing to hide? He hasn't spoken publicly about this person of interest or the man seen on the property around the time of the murders. And there really hasn't even been any clarification on whether or not those are even two people or the same person. [25:46] of these people or this singular person are still tied to active lines of inquiry, which police continue to investigate to this day. Because there's so much information about this case that isn't known, a large part of the media reporting has been focused on specific theories. In the immediate aftermath of this crime, some people in the media began to theorize that this double murder might be connected to the murder of their oldest son, Mark, who, if you recall from earlier in the story, had been killed in a drug-related incident back in 2000.

[26:16] had been identified, he'd been convicted, and he remains in prison to this day. And so he was in prison when all of this took place. Also, it's worth pointing out that at the time of Mark's death, he wasn't particularly close with his parents. Like they had had kind of a falling out after he'd fallen to this spiral of drug abuse and he kind of alienated his family and friends, which you often see in drug abuse cases. So if someone wanted to like punish Mark 14 years after [26:46] odd choice. Yeah. Unfortunately, or, you know, maybe fortunately, depending on how you look at it, Russell and Shirley Derman had no similar instance in their past for investigators to point to that would make them a target for something like this. As far as police were aware, this couple was just about as normal as you could get, and they didn't really have any skeletons in their closet. Family members and friends were explored as possible culprits, thinking like, you know, [27:16] All of their family members, in particular their three surviving children, were quickly eliminated as suspects. All of them lived either out of state or like outside of the immediate region. And they all had airtight alibis for the period of time that these crimes took place. [27:30] Police have done their best to make it clear that the family members are not persons of interest in their investigation. And they've even said that all three children have taken polygraph tests administered by the FBI. [27:41] If any of them were trying to get their inheritance early, like investigators have found absolutely no hint of it. OK, and I'd like to point out that if inheritance had been the motive, then the crime doesn't even make sense. Why would they kill Russell and then attempt to hide Shirley's body in the lake if they wanted to inherit something?

[27:59] the wealth, right? Like, if she's missing, that doesn't help them. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I hadn't thought about that, but it's so true. And eventually, like, obviously, they did end up finding Shirley, and the inheritance ended up getting split between three of them. So none of the kids, like, inherited any really large amount anyways. Nothing you would think someone would kill their parents over. Right. So the other, like, plausible theory that's going around is that this might have been the work of a hitman. Okay, but why? Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And the way their [28:29] were disposed of doesn't seem right to me either. Like, two separate ways, both killed differently, both disposed of differently. Like, I don't know. I'm literally just going off of what I know from movies and news articles, but it feels off, right? Yeah, I was going to say, even the fact that they weren't [28:44] killed in the home, but one was brought back doesn't make sense. Like, again, this seems like a very meticulous and [28:50] illogical way for a hitman to come in. Right. The only thing that kind of lines up to it for me being a hitman, like, is the fact that there was nothing. It was so immaculate. Yeah, I think that's what the reason everyone associates with this. But just being clean at the scene doesn't mean anything. Because kind of like you said before, what police have pointed out all the time was that there were so many ways in which this crime was very sloppy.

[29:20] So police really don't think a hitman is our who. [29:24] Now, they do have a main theory, though, that the investigators have worked with. And that's the idea that this double murder was carried out by more than one person who likely acted in tandem while carrying out some other crime. So investigators believe that extortion might have been the killer's original plan, perhaps hoping to abduct Shirley and hold her for ransom while keeping Russell back at the couple's home to ensure that, you know, everything went according to plan. [29:54] Russell in front of Shirley in order to intimidate her to get her to cooperate, but she didn't. Everything went wrong. But it's the belief from everything I can find that something like this happened. And somewhere along the lines, whatever the plan was fell apart, leading ultimately to the deaths of Russell again. [30:11] and surely or both at the same time. We don't know. [30:14] Without any more solid information, that theory is kind of really hard to parse through, but it's the working theory that investigators believe is most likely, especially since the alternatives are even more terrifying and outlandish. [30:28] Our only other option is maybe this killer didn't have a motive and just acted out of pure malice and murdered Russell and Shirley for the sake of murder itself. That theory scares the crap out of me. [30:42] kind of seems like the most likely. We covered the Israel Key story a little while ago, and I could almost see this killer being like him. I mean, this crime seems so random and gruesome. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I mean, again, I don't think he's being considered in this case at all, but I fully believe that he's not the only one

[31:01] of his kind. So I guess that's totally possible. I just... [31:06] Again, I hate to believe that something like that is real. Yeah. [31:10] I mean, it's a possibility, but I still feel like it's got to be someone they knew. Yeah, I keep coming back there as well. Again, kind of because of like the him stuff that people were saying. And again, I might be reading into something that's like totally obscure. [31:23] Well, and something I was thinking about was... [31:25] You said that Shirley was found in an area of the lake that was like the deepest part, right? Yeah, right. You have to know that about the lake to drop her there, right? Oh, I guess like... Like some familiarity? So I don't know enough about the lake to know if there are multiple places where it's 50 feet. I don't know how big this area is. Like, because say it's not the entire lake, like if it's pretty remote, what are the odds that you... [31:48] put her in the deepest part to make sure she isn't found right away. Right. It just seems like it was planned to put her there, you know? Yeah. Well, the neighbors of Russell and Shirley have been pretty quiet in their speculation about the crime, refusing to talk to reporters recently and just kind of trying to forget it ever happened. And honestly, I can't say that I fully blame him. This case remains open and unsolved to this day, with police not so much as even having a lead on a suspect or a potential motive that they've released to the public. [32:17] Apparently, they've reportedly received tips ranging from like the believable to the very bizarre with at least one tipster believing that the killer belonged to a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda or ISIS. OK. Others believe that an evil religious cult was involved. I mean, there was even one tipster that called police to let them know that an alligator had attacked Russell in the garage and later dragged Shirley out to the lake. OK.

[32:41] Sure. The more likely possibilities are so terrifying that I can't blame people for coming up with these kind of crazy theories. This was either someone with a personal grudge against Russell and Shirley, someone that was willing to brutally harm them for personal gain, or... [32:58] a wandering serial killer whose motives have never been uncovered. Anything other than those theories doesn't really make sense to me, and it doesn't fit with what we know about this brutal, terrible crime. Because what we do know about this mysterious killer is that they killed Shirley with a hammer-like instrument, then disposed of her body in the middle of the lake, again, in the deepest part. Then they decapitated Russell with a sharp knife and left his head in some unknown location, [33:28] I still don't get that. Like, did they put it somewhere or hide it? Did they keep it? Like, it just seems... [33:35] unnecessary. Again, this is why this case is so crazy to me because our options are, okay, this is a crazy serial killer and they kept that as a trophy. That doesn't seem logical. Okay. The, [33:48] Someone hit it, but why are you hiding it? Like, you know, what normal person living in this neighborhood who they might know like could have bullets traced back to them? None of it. [33:58] makes any sense. [34:00] The only other thing that we know or assume is that at the time of the murder, they, whoever they are or he or whoever this perpetrator is, had access to a boat, which was likely already docked at the lake, according to police. So I think they're thinking it's someone that they know, too.

[34:18] The FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit provided a very broad description of the culprit, indicating that he was likely a male due to the physical strength that would have taken to carry out this crime single handedly. And was someone who liked guns and knives. But unfortunately, in central Georgia, these traits would describe a lot of people. So figuring out who exactly is behind this just based on that is going to be an incredibly difficult task for the investigative agencies. [34:46] Now, local police continue to operate under the assumption that the killer was someone that knew Russell and Shirley and who was likely familiar with the layout of their home. [34:57] I think they know something more that we don't know. Because they say that the boat was likely docked at the lake, because they say they had to be familiar with their home. But I don't know what it is that makes them say that because they haven't released that to us. And police don't believe that this person or persons lived in the area at the time of the crime because they say there's no way that someone this brutal and gruesome would be able to hide their true selves in an area where violent crime like this is nearly unheard of. [35:26] The identity of the killer remains unknown, but investigators remain hopeful that they, or potential accomplices, will trip up in the near future. [35:35] Then, and only then, will they expose themselves, and the families of Shirley and Russell Derman will finally get justice. [35:44] If you want to see pictures from this case, or you'd like to take a look at the sources our team used for this episode, so you can dive even deeper into the case, you can do that at our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. And there's also a direct link to the blog post in your show notes. But I hate to be the one to say it,

[36:14] We'll be back next week with a new crime episode. Yeah, next week is Labor Day, and we plan to take some time off with our families. [36:20] But there's always good news. If you are dying for an extra true crime fix, we never take off in our fan club. And next week, there will be a brand new episode dropping if you just need to hear us next week. Yep. So we will be back after the holidays. Bye. [36:35] *music* [36:58] you [36:58] you [37:00] you [37:03] you [37:06] Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [37:14] Okay, Crime Junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [37:32] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [37:36] I think you'll love it too. [37:37] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.