CAPTURED: The Golden State Killer

[00:00] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some of us, summer means more juggling, which can lead to overwhelm and worry. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you need. Having served over 6 million people globally, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. They'll match you with a quality licensed therapist, so you can focus on your therapy goals. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. [00:29] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock season eight now, wherever you get your podcasts. [01:05] Hi everyone, I'm Britt, the producer of Crime Junkie, and I think by now most of you know that on April 25th, 2018, the monster known as the Visalia Ranzacker, the East Area Rapist, the original Night Stalker, and most recently, the Golden State Killer, was apprehended and [01:29] exeter of California during some of the time he was active as the Golden State Killer. To say that Ashley and I were ecstatic is an understatement. We knew you junkies would want our take on the case, but we also knew we couldn't do it justice in the time you'd want it. So we went to Mike Morford, one of the hosts of Criminology. We've been following season two of their show, covering the Golden State Killer, and knew that he'd be a great resource to get a high

[01:59] So with that, here's Ashley's interview with Mike. [02:03] Well, it's nice to, like, phone meet you. [02:07] Yeah, it's a little different than playing tag on social media, I guess. Tag on Twitter? Yeah, for sure. [02:16] So I am a little less prepared than I wanted to be. It's been – we've never covered the East Area Rapist or Golden State Killer, whatever you want to call him. [02:27] I know about him, obviously, as much as the layperson does. So I was planning on doing a little bit of research to kind of help direct the call. But I wanted to get you when I could. So... [02:39] I'm hoping that you can kind of lead me through it. Everybody keeps, like I said, keeps asking for us to do this case, and I don't like doing cases. [02:49] that I think other people have done really well. I just think it takes away from our show and why do it when someone's done it better. [02:55] So, [02:56] You guys have done a really good job, and it's been your whole focus for a while now. Yeah, I can walk you through as much as you need to know and try and give you an idea of the... [03:09] the basics of the case. [03:11] Yeah, if you wouldn't mind, I think that that's kind of what the listeners are hoping for is a little bit of a narrative of a story for those who aren't as familiar. I know for the full deep dive, I'm going to send them to your podcast. But if you could kind of give us a high level overview of kind of the story of the ECRA rapist and when it started, how he kind of transformed. And then obviously you and I are recording on the day that he was arrested. So this is kind of crazy.

[03:41] So back in June of 1976, in the town of Rancho Cordova, which is in Sacramento County in Northern California, there was a rape and... [03:54] You know, it was a weird rape, and the fact that the guy came in, he had a whole... [03:59] Plan and and it was laid out well and he stuck to a certain script and did things in a certain order [04:07] and he succeeded and [04:10] And then there was a series of rapes in the town, in the neighboring town, [04:14] afterwards and they started to be once a month and then a couple times a month and they just started going on and on and on faster and faster. [04:22] and he moved out of Sacramento County and [04:26] into other parts of Northern California and other counties. And along the way, he had 50 rape victims over three years. And he moved down to Southern California after that, [04:38] And that's when he started killing people. And they later on linked... [04:43] you know, by DNA, the [04:46] the northern rapes with the southern rapes and murders that he did down there. And that's sort of what led to the DNA evidence that they actually used to [04:57] catch him today. So the attacks that he did in Northern California [05:03] Did they know for sure that they were all connected? I know they were obviously scared of someone. Did they realize how... [05:09] prolific he was in Northern California or was it not until the DNA? Yeah, so in Northern California where he was known as the East Area Rapist, he started attacking the eastern half of Sacramento County. That's how he became the East Area Rapist. And he had a very strict M.O. He had a very unique signature. He would

[05:28] Bye. [05:29] If there was a male home with the woman, he would force the woman to tie up the male as he held them at gunpoint, and he would stack dishes on the male's back, and he would take the woman in another room and rape her. And he would tell the male, if I hear these dishes... [05:47] Paul, I'm going to kill you and her. So he would do this, and he stuck to the script over and over and over again. Now, sometimes when he... [05:56] would attack a woman by herself with no man in the house he would use a knife as opposed to a gun so he felt that he was able to control them a little bit better without needing to use a gun so the mo is very unique so when he did these different rapes you know he could people could tell you know it was him at these different attacks and all 50 attacks he would bound the the couples in a certain manner [06:22] Sometimes he would go to the refrigerator and eat food right out of the refrigerator during the attack. [06:27] Um, [06:28] So they started seeing all these different signs and questioning all these victims, and they all reported the same things. [06:35] So they knew from the ammo and the signatures which rapes were his and which ones weren't. And he [06:42] He basically got the 50 rates. [06:44] And they knew they had, you know, a big problem. And did he, if I remember correctly from your earliest episodes this last season, he didn't start with couples, right? He actually kind of started with younger girls, if I remember right. Yeah. So the first victim was a lone female that was in her 20s. She was home at her father's house. And he had gone on some family business for a month. So she had the house to herself. So he attacked her first.

[07:13] And the second victim were actually sisters. He attacked them when they were home alone. He raped one of them. He didn't rape the other one. [07:24] And they were, again, they were teenagers. And then he would come back. [07:28] to the same area he did the first to second, [07:31] And he raped, or tried to rape, [07:33] some teenage girls there, but their mom was home and fought them off. [07:37] But after that, the victims changed. Some of them were in their 30s. [07:43] and then there was one that was as young as 12. [07:47] but most of them were in their mid to upper 20s, 30 years old. So that's how he started with those. And again... [07:55] If it came to where there was a man in the house, then those were typical married women or women that were old enough to have a boyfriend or whatever. [08:02] And those were typically older to where they could... [08:08] If he was with them, he would feel the need to separate them and put those dishes on the backs of the males just to give them an alarm system, I guess. [08:16] So that's how that came... [08:18] You know, the MO came to be. Do people believe that he changed it as more of a challenge or just part of him... [08:26] You know, they don't know it's an original signature, a very unique MO. You know, certain profilers have looked at hundreds of cases and have never seen that kind of, you know, [08:42] unique signature in some attacks where somebody stacks dishes on a person's back. Um,

[08:49] So it was a way of alarming him should something, you know, the guy try and make a move or something. [08:55] That was his way of hearing it while he was out in the other room attacking the woman. [09:02] So that was unique, and they knew that was unique. And that was one of the easy ways they would spot him when he did different attacks. You know, another thing was he would always tell the people the same thing. [09:13] line, you know, I'm going to [09:17] just rob you, I'm going to take some money, I'm going to take some food, I'm going to go escape in my van that I've got outside. If you cooperate, I won't hurt you. [09:24] And he told that to several people. You know, it was always the same script. And that's another way they were able to determine which attacks were his and which ones weren't. [09:33] So that was it was all very unique, the signature and the script that he used. And there was I don't know, I think it was the first one, if I remember correctly, from your podcast that he had actually been calling the girl before and after the attack. Is that right? Yes. So sometimes in the very first attack, you know, she would see a car. [09:54] driving by her house frequently and when she looked out the person would look away. And then she started getting phone calls and the person wouldn't say anything, they would just hang up. [10:02] And then after her attack, she still got these phone calls, and they got the idea they should put a recording device of some sort on her phone. [10:12] to record somebody calling back. And they got a call, you know, a taunting call that... [10:19] He was saying, "I'm going to kill you," and he was calling her all kinds of vulgar names. And she determined that was the voice of the guy that had attacked her. So they knew that he was calling them after the fact.

[10:37] - [10:40] . [10:43] Thank you. [10:44] Thank you. [10:45] *sad sound* [10:51] . [10:53] I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna kill you. You're gonna be in a moment. [11:05] Kill you. [11:12] You're going to go off the plane. Thank you, sir. [11:14] Thank you. [11:16] Open up your purse. [11:18] Thank you. [11:21] Thank you. [11:25] I don't know. [11:28] Yeah. [11:31] Thank you. [11:33] What you are? [11:43] Thank you. [11:44] Thank you. [11:46] in that [11:47] That happened to several victims. Oh, it did? It wasn't just the one? No, it was many victims. In fact, some of them received calls five years later. One of them received a call... [11:57] She was attacked, I think, in 1977, and she got a call in 2001. All those years later, he was still doing that kind of stuff. So it's kind of mind-boggling to...

[12:08] the terror that he was into... [12:11] Right. And so, I mean, we obviously know now that he's Joseph D'Angelo, right? 72. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. So I think everyone's kind of, again, we're a couple hours into this. Everyone's piecing it together. But he... [12:25] was a police officer, right? Which is what everyone had kind of speculated before because he somehow was one step ahead of... [12:32] the things that they were doing was he actually an officer in the areas where this was happening or he just knew how they operated? So he was an officer in Auburn, California, which I think is If I remember correctly is a little bit outside of Sacramento County not directly in there And he was an officer if I'm not mistaken from 1973 to 1979 and [12:54] or maybe it was 76 to 79, um, [12:59] But during that time, you know, a lot of people said, how come he knows what we're doing? We're trying to catch him and he knows he sort of has the upper hand all the time. And a lot of people did speculate that he might have been a police officer. [13:13] Now, he wasn't a police officer writing that... [13:15] in those towns that is striking, but he still, you know, may have had some kind of advantage from being a police officer. But, you know, maybe as the investigation unfolds and they release more information, we'll know... [13:28] you know, more about that. But as now there's not a lot known about it. [13:31] He did... [13:34] get fired from his job for shoplifting. [13:37] And, you know, one of the things he shoplifted was dog repellent, which, you know, I don't even know what that is. I saw that, and I was like, is there such a thing? Yeah, I'm looking at my dog repellent. I've never heard of it, but he comes to find out it's some kind of repellent to keep dogs away from you, which makes a lot of sense because...

[13:57] if he's sneaking all these yards and houses, there's stalls that might attack him, you know, and maybe he thought that would scare him off. [14:04] Another possibility was that he wanted, he knew dogs would be tracking him and he didn't want them to catch his scent. So they figured that would interfere with his scent possibly. And in a couple of scenes, the dogs did react weird to his scent. [14:17] So it could have been because he was using that stuff to mask his smell. But how smart of him or conniving of him were like, even back then, [14:26] to be worried about getting caught purchasing that. You know what I mean? Like as a police officer, he was purchased, I think it was a hammer and the dog repellent, [14:33] which I don't think would be too weird, but he was obviously – [14:36] like, aware enough to want to steal it? Well, and that's the weird thing because maybe as a thief, he was, you know, as a criminal, maybe he just figured, why should I pay for it if I'm fighting to steal it? If he had bought it, nobody would have probably paid two cents to him. You know, he would have still been a cop and still been doing what he was doing. But I think he was fired in 1979, and in 1979 is when the, you know, [15:06] raping and killing people down in Santa Barbara County and Orange County down there. [15:11] Ventura County. So those three areas started getting attacked right around the time he stopped being a police officer. So it'll be interesting to see maybe if he had some other kind of job at that point that brought him down there. [15:23] That was my next question, if we knew what that was. Where – was it in Northern California or Southern California? I remember a lot of people made a big deal about –

[15:33] papers that were left outside of a crime scene. It was like a, [15:38] school paper, it looked like a book report, and then like a map of a neighborhood planning. Yeah, that was Contra Costa County. That was one of his last attacks up there. Um... [15:50] And one of the scenes, they tracked, the dogs tracked the scent across the field and along some train tracks. And they lost the scent there, and they figured that it was a spot where he had parked at and then left. But right where he was parked, they found some papers on the ground that they think he accidentally dropped. [16:09] And these papers were, you know, kind of weird things that didn't seem to go together. [16:20] But the other paper was a sixth grade essay of how bad he hated this sixth grade year of school. [16:29] And then the third paper was a... [16:31] an essay on General Custer. [16:33] So these three things sort of didn't go together, but they were all found together, and they were all on the same kind of paper. [16:40] So they kept them as evidence. And the interesting thing is today, somebody just produced some of his handwriting from a document that he signed [16:48] And it does, again, I'm not trained, but to me, it matches. I'm pretty sure that it's clear that he did write that stuff and dropped it there. So it wasn't a red herring. It very well could have been his stuff, and we have no idea. [17:01] What sense to make of it still? Yeah, it might have been just where he went to climb in the car and somehow he was in a hurry to leave and knocked it out and didn't see it.

[17:08] and that's how they got it. Had he not dropped that there, they wouldn't have had that to go on. But... [17:17] You know, it's one of the only times he really slipped up and left something at a scene that was a pretty big clue. For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [17:44] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [17:51] wherever you get your podcasts. [17:54] So when he moved down to Southern California, I remember reading that one of his victims, they felt like maybe he knew her because it was the way in which she was murdered was just so much more brutal than the others. Is that true or did I mishear? Well, so when he moved down there, he had never killed. Technically, he had... [18:15] been considered the murder of a couple, an Air Force couple that was walking their dog, and they suspect that he [18:22] They walked up on him as he was prowling in a yard, and he killed them both. Um... [18:27] So he was suspected of that, but he had never officially murdered anybody. [18:32] Now... [18:32] when he went down to Southern California, [18:35] he started attacking, raping, and murdering the couples.

[18:40] And he would shoot them, or he started, even worse, he started bludgeoning them. And with the bludgeoning, he's beating them with force, and it's more of a personal-style attack. So a lot of times they started thinking that he knows these people, and whoever murdered them is somebody that knew them because... [18:57] They were bludgeoned in a frenzy. And [19:01] you know that's typically I guess through investigations that's typically true but it remains to be seen if he did know them. Now maybe he did and that will come out too that he knew some of the victims but the last victim in 1986 [19:18] She was beat savage with... [19:21] And it's... [19:23] interesting because there was a five year gap where he wasn't known to attack anybody during that five years. [19:29] But when he attacked again in 1986, he really was rough on the girl that he murdered. And he beat her probably worse than many of the other people that he bludgeoned. [19:39] And the interesting thing is, you know, 1981 to 1986 was a five-year gap read in community murders. [19:46] Well, I did some research and I found out that two of his... [19:51] Children he's got three kids two of them were born one was born in 1981 and one was born in 1986 so whether their births or his wife being pregnant or something along those lines set him off I don't know but it'll be interesting to see what comes out of you know materials as they release them to see.

[20:11] What drove this guy to do what he did? Yeah, have you? So you obviously have done some digging. Yeah. [20:15] Is there anything else that you have learned about this guy? I mean, I know everyone's still kind of piecing it together – [20:20] bit by bit. Yeah, I know, I don't know a lot more than most people. I got a little advance notice last night before they announced anything. And it was weird because I didn't know at the time, but I was the first person on Twitter tweeting, you know, tweeting about the stuff. Wow. And then it just sort of went crazy. And it was like, you know, just retweet, retweet. And I'm like, wow, [20:50] So I realized that I was the only one that knew about it at that point. [20:55] You know, but... [20:57] With the information I had, which was very limited, I knew the guy's age and some general information about him. I didn't know his name at the time. I found that out a little bit later. [21:06] but things got moving pretty fast overnight. And then this morning I got a call from somebody and sort of solidified everything that I already had. So by this morning, you know, it was pretty clear what was going on. And then at the press conference today, we were able to find out some more information about them. Yeah, and this isn't, I mean, something that you just like picked up overnight. You said you actually were on a panel last year at CrimeCon. Is that right about this case?

[21:36] victims and family members of those that didn't survive. And, you know, I got to be friendly with them and, you know, I started wanting to see if I could help in any way. And one of the ways I, you know, I [21:49] volunteered to help was going to CrimeCon and helping them present the case about the Golden State Killer, which was in 2016, 2017 now, actually. [22:01] And at the time, the case, it's weird, the case really didn't have that much national appeal. Not that many people knew about it. [22:10] And just a year later at this CrimeCon, it's like huge news, just about everybody knows about it. So in that short one year period, the case really exploded. So that's sort of how I got into it. And I did a lot of research and I had some connections in law enforcement that were investigating it. So I was able to get my hands on some stuff to help. [22:32] you know, tell the story a little bit better on our podcast. So it was a big aid in doing that. Yeah. Yeah. You guys have had like incredible episodes and incredible interviews like nobody else has done, which I think is part of it. I think it's like, you know, everyone is pointing to Michelle McNamara's book. And but I think it was a collective thing from everybody, from everyone still talking about it. [22:54] her book, the podcast, like everyone just caring enough to – [22:59] Try and still get tips. I think a lot of times, like I know I work with a ton of cold case detectives. And the number one thing is if people just think no one cares anymore, they don't come forward.

[23:09] I think you're right about that, and it's... [23:12] It was weird to see the amount of people from 40 years ago that retired. They retired 20, 30 years ago, and they're still... [23:22] going out to these shows and being interviewed and trying to help. And then the family members of victims that were murdered keep telling their story over and over again, which I always thought was brave to be able to go through those emotions again over and over again and to help tell the story. That's what they've done. So everybody doing this effort and then spreading it on social media has really helped. [23:43] move this case to where it's a household name versus what it was. Indeed, in all of the talks that you've given and the people that you've talked to, [23:52] Did Joseph D'Angelo's name ever come up, or is this just one of those out-of-nowhere guys? [23:59] This is an out-of-nowhere guy. From everybody I've talked to, he's a real surprise. [24:06] You know, I've... [24:07] Talked to a couple people that did a lot of data mining on different people of interest throughout the counties where he struck and collected thousands and thousands of names of people that might be interested, you know. [24:20] possible suspects and this is the name that nobody had nobody really had on their radar [24:26] Um... [24:27] And it also turns out the interesting thing is they're going to link him to something called the Visalia ransacking case. [24:35] Summer breaks should be fun, but it is also important to keep young minds active. Even though my daughter's out of preschool, we are helping her all summer continue to learn and study and just not give up building that muscle. And IXL is a great way to help kids stay engaged and avoid losing progress between school years. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. And as an award-winning online learning platform, IXL helps kids truly understand what they're learning.

[25:05] confidence, or strengthening writing skills. Studies show kids who use IXL score higher on tests, proven in all 50 states. From pre-K through 12th grade, IXL offers personalized, interactive content for each child's level and pace. It is an easy way to support learning now through the summer and into the next school year. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And Crime Junkie listeners, you can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when you [25:35] ixl.com slash crimejunkie. Visit ixl.com slash crimejunkie to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. [25:44] That took place before these stereotype rapist crimes. [25:48] That was in 1973 to 1975 in Visalia, California. [25:53] And that's a case where [25:55] The offender was burglarizing a lot of homes. [25:59] but not raping or attacking anybody. [26:03] But he eventually did try to kidnap a girl, and her father tried to intervene, and he was shot and killed. Oh, wow. Yeah, so then later... [26:12] the police officer [26:15] cornered the guy and he tried to kill the police officer by shooting at him. [26:20] So there are... [26:22] You know, a kidnapping charge there, a murder, an attempted murder there, charges there if they can positively link to him. [26:29] He'll probably be facing those charges on top of all the other murder charges that he has now. So he started way before anyone even thought...

[26:38] that he did. And there's like a very clear path of escalation. It is. And the interesting thing is, um... [26:47] When he left Visalia, the last time he attacked was 1975. [26:53] He had, again, only one attempted abduction... [26:56] Um... [26:57] No known rapes. And then he showed up June of 76, which is about six months later, [27:05] And he's suddenly raping, and he's doing it proficiently. [27:09] So it's almost as if in a six-month time frame [27:14] he suddenly changed M.O. drastically. [27:17] Um... [27:18] So maybe there were some victims in between where he phased over to that. But one way or another, they think that he did commit the first series of crimes in Visalia, so they're going to try and link them to him as well. Was the last one in Visalia where he tried to abduct the girl and ended up murdering her father, or was that somewhere in the middle? That was Visalia. He raped her, or he, excuse me, he abducted her, tried to abduct her, got her out of the house, and the father caught them outside the house, and he was shot. [27:48] that happened there? In Visalia, no. They had stakeouts. In one of the areas that they staked out, a police officer was sort of sitting in a garage waiting for this guy, and sure enough, he shows up there. [28:00] And the officer [28:02] shined his light and said freeze and the guy said please don't shoot me and [28:07] The officer sort of let down his guard a little bit, and the guy pulled out a gun and shot at the officer and hit the flashlight that he was holding, and the guy was able to get away. So he definitely wasn't afraid to kill when he needed to. He definitely tried to...

[28:24] preserve himself without getting caught and if he was cornered and he needed to [28:30] To make an escape, he wouldn't hesitate to shoot somebody. And if I remember correctly, too, so you said there's a six-month period before he shows up again and is brutally raping these women, and something might have happened in between. But even during the East Area Rapist, when... [28:44] that was going on, there were like weird blocks where he would disappear for a little bit, right? Like for like three months at a time. There were stretches where, you know, [28:53] a two-month period, a three-month period, a one-month period, [28:56] where he wouldn't attack. And then there are stretches where he might attack [29:00] three times in two weeks. [29:04] And at one point it seemed like they were coming faster and faster on top of each other, and they suddenly stopped for three months. So that's another thing that'll be interesting to see [29:14] what was going on in his life that caused him to take those breaks. You know, if they can tie some kind of, maybe he was away training for something, maybe he, um, [29:26] had an injury? Is there anything they can tie to the breaks in the crimes to sort of help tell the story about what he was doing and how he was doing it? Yeah. And do they even know where they're going to try him at this point? I mean, he was all over the place. There's so many different, I think 10 different counties. Yeah. It's sad because all the rapes can't be tried. The statute of limitations ran out on them. And back then it was a very short statute of

[29:56] arrest him for any of the rates, which is crazy. [30:01] But all the murders, attempted murders, things like that, those charges are still enforceable. So in each of the counties where he's got these murders, he's going to probably face murder charges in all of them. So they started out with Ventura. They moved back up to the young military couple that was killed in Sacramento. They're going to charge him with those charges. [30:24] And then they're going to move down, I think, to Santa Barbara and Orange County and charge him with murders down there as well. Twelve murders altogether that they think he committed. [30:33] I think he committed more. [30:35] But many of those murders are DNA linked, so they know that he committed just about all the ones they're going to charge him with. But I suspect there's more out there that they haven't discovered yet. I was just going to ask you, and I never saw a ton of this, but do people think he ever wised up and started – [30:52] Like trying to avoid leaving his DNA. I mean, I wonder how long he was active for because it's it doesn't seem realistic that he would have stopped back in the 80s. He was still very young. Well, and that's that's the thing. So, um, [31:05] Being in law enforcement, he might have got a heads up that they were coming out with this stuff called DNA because back then they didn't really know anything about DNA. Being in law enforcement, he may have had some kind of insight to know, hey, they're coming out with this DNA stuff. I've got to be careful because he didn't leave any prints. He was very careful about not leaving prints, not leaving evidence, except for the one time he may have dropped his papers. But he didn't know about DNA, so he was leaving semen all over the state.

[31:35] getting his DNA sample left and right, and that's what they wound up linking him with. [31:41] And I think that's what ultimately led to his arrest. I think they were able to get some success running that DNA through some databases and then linking it to the right family, and then they tracked it. [31:51] through the family and tracked to him. And I think that's what's going to come out on how they caught him. Do you know how long ago, because I know they said they got it through something that he discarded, his DNA. Do you know how long ago that was, though, when they had been tracking him and collected that? [32:06] and how long it took to process? My understanding, it was this week. Oh, wow. They, they, they suspected it was him. They waited patiently and found some DNA on something that he discarded. And they tested it immediately and got a direct hit 100% match. Um, [32:23] So at that point they knew they had their guy and then they went in and arrested him and were able to take him into custody. And he was living with his daughter and his granddaughter at the time. Is that right? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know his exact family dynamics. I've heard some mixed things about that. I know that the kids that he had were older. You know, I know he had at the time, I think he had a 30 year old daughter, a 35 year old daughter, if I remember correctly, um, [32:49] So I think his other kids were older. And then he, I remember reading, at least in one place, and I don't know if this was like the Accepted, [32:57] Um, [32:58] Profiled, but I remember hearing before that they didn't think he would be like a married man But from what they're saying is his his marriage records so that he was married way back in like the early 70s So he was married like the whole time this was going on. Is that right? Yeah, for my understanding, um, I

[33:16] He did have a long-term relationship, which is a little bit opposite of why I thought he would be somebody that either never got married or he got married several times because he had marital issues. But apparently he was married a lengthy time. But one interesting thing I found when I went searching through the newspapers when I first got his name... [33:36] I found a wedding announcement back in, I think it was 1970 for him, and he was engaged to marry a girl named Bonnie. [33:46] Well, something must have happened. They broke up and they didn't get married. But at one of the crime scenes, he was whimpering and crying in the corner and the person was listening to him and he said, Bonnie doesn't like it when I do this stuff. So that was one of the things that he was sure that he had the Bonnie. And then I found that he had been engaged to a Bonnie. So that's something that stuck and hit me immediately. I had never even heard that. That's crazy. [34:16] If you don't know all the facts of this case and you haven't looked at it, it's easy to miss a lot of little clues and things. But having read through just about every report 10 times, there's certain things that definitely stick out that you tend to remember, and that was one of them. Do you know Bonnie? Did she... [34:36] Did she pass away? Do we believe that they just called off their engagement or do we have no idea what happened to her? Yeah, I don't know what happened. I know she did get married to somebody else a couple years later. It wasn't to him, it was to somebody else. And I don't know if she's alive or what happened to her after that.

[34:50] I just know she didn't marry him. And then did he go on to marry his current wife? Was it around 73? Yeah, I think it was in the early, I want to say it was 73, but [34:59] and he married her, if I'm not mistaken, in Tulare County. And Tulare County is important because that's where Visalia is. [35:10] As a matter of fact, in the record of the marriage, it listed his name. [35:14] wife is living in Sacramento County and him is living in Tulaire County. And that was 1973 when the Visalia ransacker attacks were happening. So that's a link that's going to put him in that county, which is probably going to further... [35:28] make the case that he was a vice-cellular ransacker. And so weird that it started like right as he got married. Yeah. It seemed like that's when it did start. Um, [35:37] Now, because he was prowling and he was out... [35:41] all hours of the night calling victims at night, prowling, attacking. It seemed like, I don't know how you went to work. I don't know what shift you worked. But if you're out from dark until 6, 7 a.m., [35:58] How do you function and go to work after that? But he was constantly doing that. And it's going to be interesting to see how he accomplished that because it just – it doesn't seem possible that he could be up the amount of hours that he was and still function and have a full-time job. Yeah, and he obviously was able to do it well because, again, nobody was noticing. He was able to have – [36:18] you know, as healthy of a marriage as you can have with a serial killer. Cause if you know, they had kids, nobody was thinking it was this guy, um,

[36:26] It's just super strange that he could be so normal. [36:29] And no one would suspect him. And it kind of explains why he could hide for so long. And that's maybe part of it. You know, he wasn't the monster, the creepy... [36:38] guy next door he was a family guy with a boat in his front yard in the normal house and and grandkids or whatever um [36:47] So that was a bit of a facade, obviously, but from outward appearances, it looked normal. So I think he fooled a lot of people. So before this guy was caught, how many more episodes did you guys have planned of your podcast? Well, we had 12 planned. We just recorded our 10th one, which obviously throws a little bit of a monkey ranta curveball to us as to what we're going to do. But we think we're going to finish it out with our normal 12 episodes, but we're going to do a bonus episode. [37:17] at least in the next 24 hours or so. Just updating the case, saying what's happened. You know, it's a big development. And then maybe in the last episode... [37:27] Excuse me. We'll spend some time going over what we know and what we found out about the guy and make that part of the last episode. Yeah, and I'm sure stuff is going to continue to just keep pouring out. Do you guys think you will, you know, once you're done, I know you guys did the Zodiac season one and you kind of wrapped that up and I know you're now, you guys are doing a book, is that right, on the Zodiac? [37:48] Yeah, so we had our season one transcribed over into book form, so that's going to be coming out in the near future probably over the summer. Very cool. We're probably going to do the same thing with this case as well. It's a popular case, and we have a lot of good material, so we'll probably wind up doing the same thing with this one. So do you think, are you going to go the way of serial and just like wrap it up and be done with it and not go back when there's trials and stuff?

[38:18] and kind of keep releasing new information? It would be hard not to go back to it. I think for me personally, just because again, I'm, I'm, I'm, [38:26] knowing the victims and being friends with the victims and some of the family of the victims. It's a little bit more personal. So I don't think I would walk away from it. I think I would still do updates on it and want to share things as they develop. So I don't know that I'd ever do a whole season on it again, but there might be some episodes later. [38:47] left that we can do to just update people with what's going on with the case. [38:52] Awesome. And do you guys have a season three already identified? We don't. And, you know, at the end of each season, we sort of don't plan in advance. So we're sort of, you know, burned out from a long season as it is. And we like to take a week off and just refresh and start thinking about the next project. But with our podcast, we do a highly detailed project. [39:18] deep dive into a case using a lot of police reports and things like that, people that were there, people we can interview. So we have to find the right case that sort of fits that direction. [39:30] that model [39:32] Yeah, and you guys, do you have anyone in California? Or you guys are out on the East Coast? Yeah, we're on the East Coast. I mean, I have a lot of friends and connections and things out on California. [39:42] Yeah. The West Coast in California. But we're actually back on the future. Okay, so it's got to be a little bit more difficult to get, like, boots on the ground as opposed to having something in your backyard.

[39:50] You guys keep picking California cases, too. You've got two in a row. Yeah, and that's the thing. We want to sort of keep it fresh and not necessarily go back to California. And it just so happened that the first two were from California. But I suspect whatever case we do next is not going to be in California. Is there anything that I missed that you want to – [40:11] throw out there or anything that ain't covered? I think we covered the keys pretty thoroughly. I've said an abbreviated version, but one important thing just to mention, I think... [40:24] At the end of the day, when this guy goes to trial and all the details come out, [40:28] I think he's probably going to be America's [40:33] all-time [40:34] Worst serial offender. [40:37] you know, predator-wise, you know, he's going to wind up being responsible for hundreds of home burglaries and break-ins. [40:45] At least 50 rapes, probably more out there that never came forward or were unidentified, and he's going to have at least 13 murders. [40:55] And there's probably more beyond that that hasn't been discovered yet. But he's going to wind up being, if not the nation's worst serial predator, he's going to wind up being California's worst serial predator. [41:06] I can absolutely see that because I think you're right. I think there's just so much we don't know yet. [41:12] Yeah, it's just the tip of the iceberg. [41:15] It'll be interesting, too, to see kind of where he came from as we learn more about him, his background. And I do kind of feel for his family. You know, I mean, God has as.

[41:26] a daughter about the same age as his, to have your world just turned upside down like that, that's got to be kind of shocking. You wake up one day and the police are taking your dad away and he's the worst serial killer in California history. I sort of feel bad for them too. [41:44] as awful as what he did, you know, was, I feel bad for the victims. You know, I also feel [41:50] Sorry for his family. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out and see if they support him or if it repulses them and they're not even on the side. Well, Mike, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I think this is, like I said, going to be way better than if I just tried to retell a story that hasn't been my whole life for the last year. Well, I appreciate you having me on. It was good talking with you, and I enjoy the podcast too. And then if there's anything we can do for you again in the future, I love working with you guys. You guys are super awesome. All right, cool. [42:20] And like I said, I like the cases you cover. You guys picked some good ones. You know, Tinsley case is one of my favorite cases. [42:28] Yeah, not a problem. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you again, Mike. It was great talking to you. Yeah, good talking to you. [42:32] Take care. You too. All right, bye. Bye.

[42:38] I really enjoyed this interview so much, and we really hope you did too. Huge thanks to Mike for giving us some time to talk about this case that he's been so passionate about for so long. Stories like this one really make us focus on why we do this show. [43:02] Akins and April Tinsley and all [43:05] so many other horrific unsolved cases that maybe not that many people know about. The horrible people behind these crimes are still out there. Someone knows something, and eventually someone will be willing to talk if they know people still care. Thank you guys so much for listening, and if you want to learn more about the Golden State Killer, definitely check out Criminology Season 2. I, for one, cannot wait to hear the rest of the season. And if you enjoyed this episode, head on [43:35] star rating and even better if it's a written review it really helps new listeners find our show and we also really really love reading all of your sweet notes and as always check out our website crimejunkiepodcast.com and subscribe to our newsletter we'll be releasing some exclusive news there here in the next week or so so that's pretty exciting and follow us on twitter at crime junkie pod and on instagram at crime junkie podcast ash will be back next week to give you [44:05] fix crime junkie is written and hosted by me all of our sound production and editing comes from brit prewatt and all of our music including our theme comes from justin daniel crime junkie is an audio chuck production so what do you think chuck do you approve

[44:26] *Mario's scream* [44:31] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [44:49] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [44:53] I think you'll love it too. [44:55] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.