#2381 - Taylor Kitsch

[00:00] The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [00:16] Yeah, you have to. Well, see, if you're ever going to shoot something at 45, you really want to be comfortable at twice that. Okay. So I'll shoot 90, I'll shoot 100 yards. [00:27] Thank you. [00:28] Yeah, because that way when you get into 40, it seems normal. Yeah, right. It seems easy. Easy day. Yeah. Yeah. [00:33] It's all just about, like, effective distance. Would you take a shot at 85? No. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. That's far. You might take a follow-up shot. Oh, yeah. Like, you know the animal's already going to go down. Yeah. And you can, if you can, you should always get a second shot of them. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll take a second shot at 85, but I would never. Have you had one and it just fucking ran? [00:53] Just gone. Oh, yeah. Like 200, 300 yards. [00:58] What do you mean? Like if you shoot it and you know how. If you hit it? Yeah, hit it and it just goes into the bush and you've got to track it, find it. Yeah, you can track them though. Yeah, just leaking all over the place. Yeah, blood trails. Yeah. Especially if you use a large mechanical broadhead. So I've shot one deer in my life. [01:15] And it was after loan. [01:17] And I was on Latrell's. After Lone Survival? Yeah. And I was with Latrell and a couple other SEALs on his ranch. [01:25] And, you know, you're surrounded by seals. So it's like he's like, let's get you one. I'm like, yeah, let's go.

[01:31] And so we're on the ranch. Have you been there? No. Oh, it's great. And... [01:37] I don't know how many acres, but he used to have like giraffes on the ranch and shit. It was crazy. You would literally just be out there and there's a couple of giraffes. And I think they're gone now. But we pull into this like opening and he's like, there's going to be some deer on the right. [01:56] Lo and behold, a couple deer... [01:58] He's like, okay, take that one. Pull out the M4. We're pretty far, but not crazy. And I'm nervous, man. Of course, I've trained with the M4 for loan and all this stuff, but I've never like... [02:12] shot shot. [02:13] And so I hit it. [02:15] and he's like fucking great shot let's roll up [02:20] Roll up, no deer. [02:22] And you can hear it, though. And it's like... Just losing his fucking mind. Oh, no. And I'm like, oh, fuck. And so the other SEAL, he's like, let's go. So we walk and walk and walk and finally get around this corner. And we have to put him down with a pistol. And I was like... [02:43] Why'd you have to put him down with a pistol? Just because we walked right up on it. Oh, just dying? Yeah. And so I was just like... [02:51] I'm sorry. [02:52] okay, this is part of it. Yeah. And then we, you know, ate it and all that kind of stuff. But it was... That's the good part. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. [03:01] But that was my one experience. But I did go...

[03:05] with my bro loves hunting. And, uh, [03:09] We went out in Montana on a friend's ranch in any of the backcountry, and he was Bo... [03:15] And I love tracking animals for photography. So it's the same thing. Watching the wind. [03:21] I'm getting up fucking before light hits just getting deep your way up there to calling all that kind of stuff. [03:28] And it's just so fun. And once you get in tight, your adrenaline is just buzzing. And we had eyes on this, like, big boy. And so then I'm doing the – he's, like, working his way up the mountain, up this pass. And I'm doing the antlers against the tree and then the antlers and getting it angry, getting it worked up. And it starts bugling even more. And you're like – I'm not even taking the shot. And I'm like – [03:58] this is fucking legit and he like he pulls his fucking mask down and he's like getting into it i see him like army crawling up there missed but um we had a blast it's more of like a bonding experience man than anything for us but it's a very intense experience especially it really is they scream and truly the sound like gives you goosebumps [04:21] It does. Especially when you're close to them. Yeah. And it just goes through your body. It shakes you. Yeah. There's nothing like elk. I know. Yeah. [04:31] I know. It's really fun. Yeah. But it takes a lot of work. It is... [04:35] You earn it. Yeah. It's a different hunt, right? Yeah. Than just rifle. It's just rifle up there, at least in that area. It's like sometimes your hunt's under an hour.

[04:46] You know, with Bo... [04:49] you're in one yeah you're this is days possibly oh for sure yeah yeah yeah especially if you want to get within 50 yeah and then that's the magic yes yes yeah throwing up the grass checking it all the time fuck it's so fun you live in montana now i do yeah how long you been out there [05:09] five, just over five years now. [05:12] That's awesome. What made you choose that? Man, flying into Austin, I was here 16 plus years. So it's just memory fucking lane. It's crazy. Oh. Crazy. This is where it all started, man. Really? Yeah. Like Friday Night Lights. [05:27] Um... [05:28] We were like school for the deaf just down the street, land in the airport. Dylan Field was just across the airport. So, so many memories of Pete and I. We were staying at the Four Seasons shooting the pilot, learned to box here at Richard Lord's. [05:45] Um... [05:45] If you don't know this guy, he's fucking amazing. Richard Lord? Yeah, Richard Lord. There's a doc on him, actually. He's up. I don't even know if he's still around. He was pretty old when he taught me how to box. [05:57] But, um... [05:59] Wicked dude just zend out. He was probably in his mid 60s, so he'd be up there now, but um, I [06:07] Yeah, Pete literally was like, before we hit camera, it was like, hey, you want to go box? And I was like... [06:12] All right. [06:14] And I loved it. I loved it.

[06:18] And I still box. You mean Peter Berg? Pete Berg, yeah. He loves boxing. Yeah, yeah. He's got his own gym in L.A. Of course. I do not spar with him anymore. Yeah. [06:27] He's Dirty Pete is his fucking boxing name. I bet you didn't fucking tell you that, did he? Why is it Dirty Pete? Because he's earned that, man. [06:37] So – [06:38] You know, you'll do body shots only or stuff like that and spar. Keep each other honest. Right. But fuck, you get them once, it's... [06:47] There's no rules. There's no rules. And it's like you're on camera in like a week or something like that. He's trying to give you a black eye. Yeah. [06:55] And then you take it and you're kind of shocked at first. It just goes from 2 to 11 so quick. That's funny. But yeah, it's the best workout. We have a gym connected here. It's the last time we was here. No way here? Yeah, it's right next door. We have a big gym. No shit smart. So we worked out together and cold plunged the whole deal. [07:14] He gets after it. He does. He does. He pushes. I mean, even when we shot... [07:21] American Primeval, his little garage setup, man. Cold plunge, steam room. He's got to have it. Yeah. He's got to have it for that brain of his. [07:34] Yeah, America Primeval was fucking awesome, dude. Thanks, man. That show's so good. I started watching it with my wife, but she's like, nope, gotta go. She can't handle things get intense. That's a fucking intense, but also probably super accurate. Yes. One of the most accurate representations of what life was probably like in the West. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills.

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[09:48] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country, and for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses. [10:18] tech company guessing at solutions. Now Service Titan is building an AI trained on real trades workflows, not generic internet data. This is AI designed specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls while you sleep, dispatching your texts, helping you run your back office, growing your revenue. One platform, fully automated, [10:48] Still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. Back then. Yeah. Yeah. I learned so much on that, man. [11:03] I mean, living in Montana, I got to this cowgirl friend of mine who I met at that ranch had been working with this shaman just outside of Livingston. [11:14] And I was telling her I'm playing a guy that kind of raised by Shoshone and all this. And like that was kind of where I hung my hat of like if this guy lost his family at six or seven and then.

[11:25] Adopted or sold to the Shoshone. This is who he is. He's more Shoshone than he is white so [11:33] I started working with this shaman, which was incredible. [11:38] Went down to the Shoshone Reservation, Wynn River. Worked with the elders there. It's tough, man. Because obviously going there, you're like... And they knew I was coming. Yeah. [11:51] But it's like you're talking to these elders, and it's like we meet five minutes in, and I'm like, so what do you guys do when you bury your wife? And you're asking these heavy, heavy questions. Cultural questions. Yes. That is true meaning behind it all. So she took a long beat, and she's like, I'll get back to you on that. I'll get back to you on that. And then I went into this other room. [12:15] at the school there and this other elderly woman comes in a wheelchair and she sits there and she's like, [12:22] What do you want to know? [12:24] And so we just sat there for hours. [12:27] And she was incredibly transparent and just really open. And I would take all this and go to Pete and be like, listen, if we're going to we got to honor these guys. So let's do it right. And he was all ears. And the Shoshone was very tough to learn. When you say working with a shaman, like what did you do? Yeah. So we'll do like two hour sweats. [12:47] Um, like a sweat lot. Yeah. Yeah. How do they have that set up? Like a fire in the middle of it or something? Yeah. So it's a fire is always burning, uh, before you start the sweat and then he'll grab river rocks from Yellowstone, uh, river. And then the fire's going and he'll bring these rocks that are in the fire into the middle of the sweat lodge. And, uh, there's four doors to this one and, uh, you'll talk, you'll fast the day before. And, um,

[13:15] He'll put the river rocks in the middle, and they're smoking hot, right? And then he brings river water from a spring or whatever. And then you have – you fast, and then you – [13:27] have your intention ties. So you would sit down with them for an hour or two and talk about what you want out of this. Sometimes it's like, do I want to have a kid? [13:38] Or a buddy of mine was using heroin for something. So I would bring him and have a sweat and just give him my energy in this sweat to help him. Or my dad passed or something. Or some, it can be light too. It doesn't have to be so heavy. Um, [13:54] He's been amazing like before like I start a movie in a couple weeks and I'm just gonna go do a sweat and [14:01] And... [14:02] get ready for that. And I just, whatever he's going to energy, he's going to give me to go into this shoot. Um, and then for the, for prime evil, it was fucking beautiful. Like I wasn't a good rider. I'm still not on horses. And, uh, he gave me like my horse has a feather. If you really watch, he's, I have four horses in it, but my first horse has a feather in him. And I wanted to do all these in honor of the horses, uh, which obviously the Shoshone do. Um, um, [14:32] So he just taught me a shit ton about just to honor that tribe and honor what they do and to be as authentic as possible. So that helped me root Isaac so much. That's such an intense character. I imagine you're playing a guy who's a white guy who's deeply ingrained with Native American life.

[14:55] And so it's like it's all it's very conflicted. There's a lot going on there. [14:59] But you want... [15:00] You want to embody what this guy would be like. Yeah. Yeah. And you're you meet him when he's morning, right? [15:09] And he's lost his wife and his son and he married into the tribe. So the, the female chief, I married her daughter and had a son. And so when you meet Isaac, he's just in mourning. And I, [15:25] Everything is full circle. Everything is circular with them. [15:28] So the only way he could reunite with his family is to die honorably. So that influences the way I fight. So the way Isaac fights is all in. Wild. Wild. Like biting. Yeah. I had, I just got chills thinking about this. There's a fight, I think, in episode two, which was fucking insane. And we didn't rehearse. This is very Berg. And we have these one guy's black feet. [15:56] unbelievable guy. And I kept using him cause he's a great stunt man. And, um, so Pete's like, you guys are going to fucking roll down this hill and, [16:06] And I want you to fight your way to the river. And then we'll cut. And then I want you to fight in the river. This is like... [16:13] Thank you. [16:14] maybe 28 degrees in that river, the safety guy is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not cool. And this is all like on the go. So JJ dashing on my double is like all in. He loves this. This is near the end of the shoot too. So, and everyone's game.

[16:36] And that fight... [16:38] was just so fucking intense. So is it choreographed at all? Nothing. Nothing. Literally nothing. So how do you know, like, when he's going to punch or you're going to punch? Yeah, so... [16:49] During if it's you and me, it's like you will walk the area, make sure there's no sticks or whatever that we're going to impale us. And during the fight, I'll be like, OK, I'm going to flip you. [17:02] Oh, wow. And then it's like, okay, I'm going to get on top. [17:06] So you have to say it. Yeah. And then Pete will be yelling behind camera to be like, okay, now work your way on top of them. And then we'll fight, work our way, roll, work our way. And then he's like, okay, find a rock. [17:19] Kill him. [17:20] Jesus Christ. And then that war cry. [17:25] Which I'm so proud of. I worked on that forever, but... [17:29] And I had talked to Pete about it for months before, but... [17:33] we're just rolling so quick. And I told our A camera, Brett, [17:39] to get in tight. I mean, any shot with Pete is fucking tight, which I love. Um, [17:46] And I'm like, B, I'm going to do this war cry, so don't go down to him. And he's like, gotcha. [17:53] And so when I did it, Pete finally called cut and he goes, what the fuck? I was not fucking ready for that. And it's those moments, though, that that he allows you to just go, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We such a smart guy. He is, man. When he's dialed, he's like lone. He was just crazy.

[18:14] so... [18:15] present and early and he just i mean we're surrounded by seals as you know every take and um i don't think you could do what we did to in prep of just like no producers no pete no nothing it's just every morning 7 a.m 8 a.m we're up in the mountain [18:33] with SEALs [18:34] with ray mendoza and uh amazing guys and uh we first week is like first day man i'm canadian so i haven't shot a fucking gun in my life the first time you ever shot a gun was a lone survivor yes that's hilarious so first chris karachi who's a fucking legend a man's man um [18:59] And he, I think he was like one of the, on the first team, uh, seal team units and the deepest voice you've ever heard in your life. And like a fucking man. And, uh, he took me under his wing. And so our first day was live fire. [19:17] And Karachi took me aside. He's like, hey, it's you and me. [19:21] And I'm like, let's go. And I'm like. [19:24] as fit as I ever have been. I was running town Lake doing the Murph every fucking three times a week with weighted vests. And, uh, just at Lake Travis high school, they're doing pull-ups and it was unbelievable fun training for that. And, um, [19:42] First day was live fire. And that fucking gets you right. You do not fuck around.

[19:49] And they make sure of it. [19:53] I hadn't met Marcus yet, and Foster had... [19:58] drove down I think from Texas to New Mexico with with Latrell I was pretty jealous of that it's like ah you got to spend some real time with Marcus and I was playing Mike obviously and and who is Marcus's best friend and so we're on this fucking range and [20:15] doing live fire, like upside down, reloads, combat reloads, jamming, blindfold. It was just, it was full on. And Emil's actually a great shot. Um, [20:26] Marcus comes, everything goes full stop. And right when he's coming, there's a PA on the other side and she's bringing fucking banana shakes out. [20:38] which is not a good look for these actors. And Marcus looks at these shakes and he looks at the actors and he's like, [20:48] What the fuck is happening? [20:50] you guys don't get shakes in between, but, and one of the actors just shamelessly goes up and grabs one of these banana shakes, and he's just talking to Marcus, meeting him for the first time, and I'm like, you might want to put that down, like, wait till he fucking leaves before, but, and then, uh, it's just a beautiful experience, man, um, [21:15] The second week of training, we were doing simunitions. Have you done that? No. Oh, you would love it. So this will break skin. And they hurt. It's like a hard plastic, paint tipped. And they fly like that, right? They arc? Yeah. Because they don't go as fast? Right. And so we have sims now. And Mike would, my guy decides if we push left, push right. If we engage, get the fuck out of here.

[21:45] whatever. I got to make these calls. And, um, [21:49] So the SEALs are in tally gear, and they're like, go up the mountain. What's tally gear? Taliban gear. They're all dressed in tally gear. [21:59] We meet up at the bottom of this fucking mountain, and they're all in Taliban gear. And you're like... [22:05] Oh, God. We're so fucked. So they're like... [22:10] Give us 10 minutes. [22:11] And when you get ambushed, [22:15] We're going to watch and we're going to engage and we're going to see what you do, see what you've learned the last week. And you're like... [22:23] All right, let's go. [22:26] It happens and you're just walking, right? Just like we are in the film. You're just walking and waiting to get ambushed. You know shit's about to hit. And so they hit and you hit the ground right away to figure out where the bullets are coming. And you can hear them. [22:41] which... [22:43] really [22:44] set you straight. And so I'm looking over at Emil and I'm like fucking 12 o'clock. They're just straight up in these trees. I'm like 12 o'clock fucking push, right? We got to get the, cause we're in this open field. I just got chills. We're in this open field and I'm like, get the fucking cover, dude. We got to fucking fight our way to cover. And Emil's like taking his time. [23:11] And he's like, bro. [23:14] Ah, fuck. All right. It's fucking intense. And I'm like, push. Right. I got Foster behind me. Who's like so in it. He's fucking crawling through cactus and like bleeding. And I'm on the ground crawling, screaming at a meal. Marcus comes out full. We got hammered. I literally don't think we got through a mag.

[23:39] Like, and Marcus comes out. [23:43] and we're [23:45] Not laughing, but it's too light. Like we're taking it too lightly. [23:51] And I'm like, Emil, you got to push, man. If I'm pushing, if I'm telling you. So Marcus comes in and he's like full stop. And he goes, I thought he was going to rip Emil. [24:01] And he comes over to me and he's like, is this funny? Yeah. [24:06] And I'm like, no, sir. [24:07] And he's like, [24:08] Do you understand the stakes of this? Like every one of you are fucking dead. [24:14] You're all fucking dead. [24:16] And so he just rips me. He's like, it's your fault. [24:19] This guy doesn't want to fucking move make a move. [24:23] Like, you're dead. Do you understand that? And I was just like, just leveled, right? [24:28] And it's a beautiful learning curve for me. [24:33] And... [24:34] We got better. [24:35] But I mean, anytime there's one time I won't kill you with these stories, but one time I was like fucking proud of myself. Like we got in a ditch where it was too much. Simunition, same thing. And we got in a ditch and we're all here and I'm fucking looking down range like. [24:53] Like fucking we're in one. We're still in a fight. And then no joke. Mark Seamos, the sniper seal grabs my fucking shoulder. [25:02] And he's like, boom. And I'm like... [25:05] Where the fuck did you come from? Like, that's how good these motherfuckers are, man. So it was like, it was just an amazing experience. When you train for something like that, like how much time is spent? Like when you know you got the role and you know you're going to film, like how much time do you give yourself to prepare for something like that? Longer. I love prep. Do you? Yeah, I do. Yeah. Why do you love that?

[25:29] the more time I can root myself into this guy, especially when the stakes are so high, like Murph, um, [25:36] I mean, physically... [25:38] uh, [25:39] I did this little comedy in Canada. [25:44] And if you watch this movie, and I was training for loan during this movie, so... [25:50] It's called Skirwink Trail in Newfoundland. Beautiful fucking trail. And it's me, my best friend of 30 years, and my assistant, who is a great guy. And we're training for loan, getting ready, doing like 50-pound runs, weighted vests, all this kind of stuff. Skirwink Trail. So if you watch this movie, like at the beginning to the end, my body goes from like this to just fucking stacked in this movie. [26:20] But obviously 90% of this is mental, right? The SEALs. And so I just love that. I love the prep. I love that pressure. Pete did a beautiful thing, bringing 19 guys died on the op in the rescue mission. So it was like... [26:39] He brought all the families. I think it was a week before we hit camera. And... [26:45] Man, you know, I'm going, I'm in the elevator at the Hyatt in Santa Fe or Albuquerque. And I'm fucking nervous. [26:55] Like throw up nervous because I'm meeting Dan Murphy now. And I'm like, did I do enough? Am I really fucking ready? Am I worthy of this shit? And then we all have that.

[27:08] fucking voice in our head that's like you're a pile of shit you didn't do enough you're not ready and that's why i prep so much because it eliminates it's like a fight right ufc or anything these guys fucking you prep to eliminate that self-doubt so you can be like i'm fucking ready for you you know so it's the same mentality and so that was um [27:30] My first words to Dan were like, I'm going to everything I have into this. I'm going to do it as authentically as I know how. And he was just so fucking gracious with me. Gave Mike's firefighter patch and just told me some amazing stories. And I'm super close with the Murphy family still. But I love prep, man. I think it's. [27:54] you got to have it, especially with Pete's process. Like, [27:58] If you're, he, he's so off the cuff sometimes. And if it's an idea he has on the day, which he really leans into his gut instinct, and obviously that's guided him pretty fucking beautifully, but... [28:11] You just got to be ready for anything. [28:13] And if you don't prep, [28:15] you're not rooted, you're not ready for anything, you know? So, um, [28:20] That one was a special one. [28:22] Yeah. Do you, what, what, [28:24] When you get into a character, like... [28:27] Like if you're doing Lone Survivor, do you try to stay in that character all day long? Like, do you break for lunch and just be yourself? Yeah, I try, for sure. But you're still... Do you try to stay in the character? No, I try and be with you in the moment at lunch.

[28:43] And not even though it's got to be weird. It is weird because you're on location. Yeah. Yeah. On top of the fucking mountain, you're taking the ski lift up there. And it's so important to be this guy. Yeah. [28:55] Yeah, and then you're having lunch with the Taliban guys. You know? And they're coming, and they're like, hey, man, we're big fans. Oh, God. And you're like, this is fucking weird. Yeah, we're supposed to be shooting at each other in 20 minutes. I'm about to fucking bore your head off, man. And so, I mean, Wahlberg's quite light in between, so that can be infectious in a good way. Ben is very, like, he carries that weight in a beautiful way. That's why he's so good. [29:25] Quite light. [29:26] Um... [29:28] But, yeah, there's definitely a tone, right, especially when you're surrounded by the SEALs. It's such a quick reminder of what you're doing or serving. [29:36] Um, [29:37] But, yeah, you're up on that mountain having a sandwich, helping camera crew move their shit. And then lunch is always quick. [29:46] So you're right back into it. And it depends on the day. Like, if I know... [29:52] Like the climb up to Merck's death. [29:55] was you're just carrying more weight that day. You just cannot fuck around. You better get that fucking right. Right. And I remember being... [30:05] Emil comes up to me and he's like, hey, if we get off tonight, I'll go full circle with this. If we get off tonight, you want to go see Eddie Vedder?

[30:16] I'm like, fuck yeah. I love me some Vedder. And that was in Albuquerque. And so we go to Vedder, meet him. Vedder calls him up, sings a couple songs to him. It was an unbelievable night. [30:29] And Pete the next day. [30:32] comes up to me and we're back up in the mountain doing some, uh, [30:36] The fall off the cliff, we're doing that the next day. And Pete's like, hey... [30:42] your death scene, I want to talk about it. And I'm like, all day, what do you want to know? I got some thoughts on it. And, you know, I talked to Marcus in the hotel, and he remembers one specific thing he'd like me to do. And so Murph was pushing himself up with his rifle, climbing up this rock. So I'm like, that's really all I want to make sure for Marcus's sake that I get that in. [31:12] in a parking lot. [31:14] just outside off the highway in Albuquerque. And I'm like, yeah, right. [31:21] And he's like, no, no. [31:23] I want to control the light and have a beautiful landscape behind Murph. And I'm like, Pete. [31:30] You're fucking killing me. We're going to do this in a fucking parking lot? And so it was my last day as Murph. [31:39] and I love music. Uh, I'll always have a playlist for whatever character. And, um, [31:46] explosions in the sky, who was at the time Austin-based, great guys, and Pete uses them all the time, and they're just acoustic. Yeah.

[31:54] No lyrics, which is... They're fucking amazing. And so there's one song that has a heartbeat in it. And that was my song from Murph. And it slows down in it. And so I go... [32:06] you know, I... [32:07] Prepping in the in the trailer I walked down through this fucking parking lot and I'm like, oh, dude, I'm not in it I'm not ready for this and then I'm getting mad at Pete for putting me in a parking lot to do this shit. I'm looking at fucking Sandia Hotel Getting ready to go like this most epic death on you know, it doesn't get more epic than that guy really and [32:31] Put in the tunes. [32:33] And they built this big stage that was like four feet high in the rocks and then surrounded it by green screen. [32:40] And cameras on the phantom camera, which is that uber slow motion, that's where you see the spit coming out of Murph's mouth and all this. And I just broke down. [32:51] Like just I puddled myself right before it was just like months and months and months of thinking about it. And and prepping and putting so much pressure. And then I had explosions in my head and I was like, God damn, this is like you're overwhelmed with emotion. And Pete comes up and he's like. [33:11] Get it out. [33:12] And so I took five minutes, camera crews waiting. We did, like, I told Pete I want that rifle, him to climb up with the rifle. [33:23] I think we did three takes.

[33:26] And then the camera crew, Jacques, he's a DP. He DP'd American Primeval, but he was a camera op on loan. And he was working that slow-mo camera. And he just goes to Pete. He's like, we've got it. [33:41] We've got it. [33:42] But is it weird watching it on film knowing that you shot it in a parking lot, like trying to – [33:48] This is the first time I've told this story. Um... [33:51] Very much. Like we would go – [33:55] We went and the first time I saw this film, man, was in... [34:00] I think it wasn't Redskins. It was Denver. The Broncos. We go and show this to the Broncos. [34:08] And [34:09] Robert Griffin III? [34:11] was the quarterback, I think. Yeah, he was there. [34:15] and um... [34:16] I was with Ben Foster and Ben had seen it. And I was, I watched it the first time with the Denver fucking Broncos sitting in this theater. [34:26] And I was a mess, a mess. Yeah. Yeah. [34:30] It's just the pressure, right, I think? Yeah. But I love it. Do it, honor. Yeah, truly. [34:36] And then my first email was to Dan, his dad. [34:40] And he thanked me, and that's all that really – and Marcus. But, yeah, they thanked me, and that was really all I fucking need. [34:47] That's got to be... [34:48] a very intense kind of a role because you're playing a real human being whose family's still alive. [34:54] Maureen

[34:56] Johnny, Dan, the whole family. And there's a... [35:01] destroyer [35:03] uh, fucking beach, uh, [35:06] uh... [35:07] male [35:10] not UPS, but like a fucking... [35:15] stamp or whatever named after him. There's fucking... It's insane. There's all these huge honorary plaques and statues and all this kind of stuff. So if you let it... [35:28] overwhelm you, it definitely can. [35:30] Yeah, but it's been, I mean, that's where all this, my love for these guys is really stemmed from that. [35:38] you know [35:39] Um, that's where it's like, [35:42] I've played Seals a lot. [35:44] And it's [35:45] It's... [35:46] I'm never raised military. My grandfather served, but it was... [35:52] It's an infectious disease. [35:54] Groot, man. [35:55] It's like a brotherhood that's so real. Exceptional humans. Truly, truly. And people don't understand these guys are the best fucking problem solvers on the planet. They're doctors. They're lawyers. They're fucking smart. [36:09] So, [36:11] I don't know. I've just been embedded. And I think once you're in with these guys, you know, you know. [36:18] You don't take it for granted. It's like I've made calls to a buddy of mine that one of the most decorated seals alive. And he trained me for loan, Ray Mendoza. He just came out with Warfare, that movie. That's his best friend, his story. And unbelievable guy. But I'll call Ray.

[36:40] Ray was doing second unit on on Terminalist Dark Wolf and he's like a brother to me and [36:48] No joke you're like hey, man, I need a favor and he's like I [36:52] He'll fucking bury someone for you, man. This guy, like, yeah, what do you need? [36:58] What is it? And it's like [37:00] It's just that whole brotherhood that it's, like, unquestionably, undeniably loyal. Yeah. And, like, Marcus, like... [37:10] I mean... [37:11] We're chatting a lot lately just because I'm shooting in Huntsville in a couple weeks and he's not far. But, like, my sister, I took some time off to help my sister because she was using drugs. [37:25] And I just needed somewhere to fucking go. [37:27] Just, I can't be in Austin. I tried LA. She's still using. She's still relapsing. I fucking Marcus. Call Marcus. I'm like, let's. [37:37] This is what's going on. He's like bring her here. [37:40] Bring her to the ranch. There's no fucking fentanyl. There's no heroin. There's no meth on this fucking ranch, man. Bring her here. And so she's not using at the ranch. So we went to the ranch. And 10 days, I know she's going to be fucking clean. Because there's just... All we're doing is driving around looking for hogs. Or like hanging out, fishing, whatever it is. But he's just a... [38:06] Beautiful guy, man. And where he is now is just, he's lighter on his feet. It's so beautiful to see. He was hurting on loan, going through a lot of fucking...

[38:17] Surgery still... [38:19] All this stuff. [38:21] And they're just so loyal and just great guys. Yeah, very, very exceptional people. Your season, your shot. The NFL season is rolling, and every touchdown can bring you closer to a payout with DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Every game is another chance to cash in. Don't just watch the action. Win with it. DraftKings Sportsbook delivers the unmatched intensity of the NFL right to your fingertips. [38:51] From the first touchdown score to any time TD props or the thrill of live in-game betting, every snap is loaded with opportunity. New customers, this one is for you. Bet just $5 and get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Plus, score over $200 off NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. Your season is heating up. [39:21] That's code Rogan to get $[redacted address] your first $5 bet. Plus, over $200 off NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

[39:51] Please play responsibly. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas, fees may apply in Illinois. 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Boyd in Ontario. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. See sportsbook.draftkings.com slash promos. NFL Sunday ticket offer for new subscribers only and auto renews until canceled. Digital games and commercial use excluded. Restrictions apply. Additional NFL Sunday ticket terms at youtube.com slash go slash nflsundayticket slash terms. Limited time offer. [40:17] Have you been paying attention to what they're doing in Texas for veterans? Yes. Awesome. Huge. Awesome. It's it's so remarkable how effective it is. Yeah. And how many people it's completely saved their life and changed their life. Yeah. You know, and I was just thinking about that for your sister. [40:36] Yeah, she's clean 10 years now, just under 10. Oh, that's awesome. That's amazing. Yeah, thanks. She's a nurse now. [40:43] Which is incredible. [40:45] Yeah, it's really kind of... [40:48] Like, that's where that nonprofit comes from. Um, I just started it called Howler's Ridge. And, um, I didn't even know, like, when she got clean, like, there's some fucking crazy stories I can tell you. Um... [41:03] But she's, she got clean and she hit me up and she was at a sober escape with all the girls she got clean with. And I'm like, what is that? And it's basically a reunion with all the people that you went through your sober living or whatnot. The last place she got clean was, she was supposed to be there 90 days. She was there nine months. Whoa. Yeah, that's what I said.

[41:25] And so she was at this sober escape. And so Howler's Ridge is basically a place. I think we all know an addict if we're not ourselves and and we're going to help vets as well. But it's the sober side of addiction. So it's a place anytime you're using, at least through my experience watching my sister. [41:48] Die a couple times, get Narcan a couple times. I mean, I've seen her detox on my fucking kitchen floor, which is the worst fucking sight of anybody to watch someone in so much pain. But I'm. [42:03] This spot is for her. [42:05] you know, where it all started. And this is, I think anytime you're using, right, we're all habitual humans. You work out. [42:12] six, seven times a week. You need that for your brain. So do I. And once you get in that habit, I change. If I don't work out in three, four days, I'm a fucking asshole. And I get depressed. Yeah. Yeah. Like I get... Anxious. Yeah, very. Yep. Me too. And I get... [42:30] And I beat the shit out of myself. Right, mentally, yeah. I feel terrible. Yeah. Yeah. [42:37] So we all create this environment, whether it's good or bad. Yeah. And I think with my sis, I just didn't have anywhere to take her. [42:45] And I needed to pull her out because there was a time I she relapsed like four or five times in L.A. And I was just finishing True Detective when I got her. [42:54] And, uh,

[42:56] I mean, there's stories, but like, it's pretty fucked up that whole system. [43:00] Because you have someone that's dying, right? It's someone you raised or your brother or fucking best friend, whatever. And I bring her to this... [43:09] Well, first she had to detox, which is an incredible story. [43:14] My mom calls me and she's like, she's been using for this long and I go full hero mode. I didn't even know what fentanyl was. [43:23] Really? Yeah, I didn't. This is right after True Detective. I really wasn't exposed to it. I knew heroin, of course. So what is this, like 12, 13 years ago? Yeah, right in there. You didn't know what fentanyl was? No. I knew, like, with the seals... [43:39] They had fentanyl patches. [43:42] For the pain. Mm-hmm. And then, of course, like, but that's really all I fucking, if that. Like, obviously, I educated myself on it after, and it's 20 to 25 times worse than heroin. It's a deathbed drug. It puts you to sleep. And, um... [43:57] So I got this call and I'm like, I'll get her sober in two weeks. Bring her down like hero mode. And she comes. [44:08] And I had no idea what was going on. She had used right before... [44:12] She flew. And so she was in withdrawal. Oh, God. It's fucking right, man. And your muscle contractions are so bad that I had this little one-bedroom apartment in Marina Del Rey. Like, literally a hallway from here.

[44:29] About this long, actually. [44:32] And it's late. And she's just pacing because she can't sit still because the muscle contractions are so bad. And I'm like, Shell's just... [44:41] take go to bed take my bed and just try and sleep she's like no no no no you don't understand i have to move and so she tried sleeping going laying down muscle contractions are so bad she fell off the bed [44:56] And I'm like, okay, let's go for a walk. And the beauty of our relationship and what I think was a huge factor in getting her clean was the transparency. Right. [45:08] Like you gotta fucking be real with me. Tell me when you used, tell me how often like everything she did, which is so tough to hear. Um, [45:18] And so we ended up walking down Abbot Kinney at 3 in the morning. And no one's obviously out there. And we just did this crazy walk and talk. And I'll never forget it. And it's just heartbreaking. And I get her and I call. I don't even know if she needs to detox. So I call the hospital, Marina Del Rey, and they're like, no. [45:39] We don't take anybody that's using right now. They have to be detoxed, and we may be able to help them after. So I'm like, okay, what the fuck is – okay, we got to detox. Yeah. [45:50] And so I call this place and they're like an hour away and she's like, I have a bed for her and bring her at 6 a.m.

[46:01] I mean I got this little Wrangler a two-door Wrangler and she's in the backseat my mom in the front and she's like almost kicking the fucking glass out because the muscle contractions of my Jeep and I was like holy like such a wake-up call that I had no idea it was this bad so reality is kind of setting in. [46:21] And she kept asking for methadone. I want methadone. Because she had detox before and methadone and... [46:29] And so I go to this fucking house and I knock on the door and she's in the backseat. She's got her little backpack and it's this fucking woman like butchie in like presence. She opens the door. She's like, just a matter of fact, where's your sis? [46:47] And I'm like, oh, she's grabbing her bag. She's like, well, bring her here. I'm like, okay, uh, shells, let's go. She comes and shells is like, I need, doesn't say hi, nothing. She's like, I need methadone. And she goes, well, when did you use blah, blah, blah. And all this. And she tells her, and she's like, oh, you haven't even bottomed out yet. [47:06] We don't treat drugs with drugs here, honey. You're going to have some Gatorade and some topical muscle relaxer, and you're going to sweat this out. It's funny now, but Shelby goes to her knees, and she's like, I need methadone. She goes, no, no, no. What did I just say? [47:25] And she's like, you're getting Gatorade muscle relaxer and you're going to watch some movies. And you can smoke, no phone.

[47:33] She was incredible. Four and a half days later, she called me and she's like, your sister's good. Bring her to a sober living just by Venice High. And it's 30,000, like when someone's fucking... [47:45] almost ready to go, you're... [47:48] I'll do anything, right? And they know this. And so it's $30,000 for the month. [47:55] And it's sober living. You'll have one session, which isn't enough, because she has some trauma. [48:03] with a psych. And I was like... One in 30 days? One every week. Oh. And I was like, we need a lot more than one a week. [48:12] And... [48:13] So I draw and my sis was a runner. And so you sign this fucking contract and it's like if she runs, if she leaves, if she does this, this, this and that. [48:24] You she's out. We kick her out and we keep your money. [48:28] Two hours in, gone. I get a call. Yeah. I get a call from this LA number, and I'm like, no fucking way. [48:38] Okay, there's 30 grand gone. I'm going to find another one. She went to another one. A little better. Cool. Yeah, I got twice a week. Two days later, she runs again. So I'm down 65K in three days. And I'm like... [48:54] Bleeding cash. [48:55] And then I figure out, like, another spot. She stayed, like, 30 days, relapsed. And then... [49:02] Yeah, she kept relapsing and then...

[49:06] Multiple times. Narcanned, up in Calabasas, there's a place. And she left. And, uh... [49:13] This one girl, she had night terrors. [49:17] And so they would... She had... I would walk around Joe with this fucking Ziploc bag of pills of like... [49:27] for antidepressants, for night terrors, sleeping pills, all these things to just take away this trauma for whatever beat it would be within her, right? And... [49:38] There's an amazing doc up there. [49:40] and South African guy that deals with women, addicts, and trauma. And she was there for a while, and that was... [49:48] really great. And she got a hold of these sleeping pills and they supposed to give you one every night. [49:56] And the girl put the bottle... [49:58] up on the little half door, [50:01] You know those doors, swinging doors? Yeah. And – [50:05] So she grabbed the bottle, and she was, as a lot of these sober livings are, they're pretty incestuous, and the guys sleep with the girls, vice versa, obviously. And she was dating a kid named Mike there. And so she went to that part of the house and said goodbye to Mike. And to this kid's credit, he was like, that's a little weird. You didn't say goodnight. You just said goodbye. [50:35] pills. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. And he goes and tells, he's like, hey, this ain't right. You got to go check on her. So long story short.

[50:45] Call the ambulance and the medic to his credit is like go grab the fucking bottle and [50:51] and grabs a bottle and shows this medic and he's like, [50:55] We're pumping her stomach right now in the ambulance. [51:00] What saved her life were their time release. [51:03] Isn't that fucking crazy? [51:06] Wild. Yeah. Wild. Wild. [51:08] So I got this call and I lost my mind for giving her the bottle. [51:13] um... [51:14] But, yeah, at that point, she kind of just – [51:18] fucking ran again, went to a drug house. She hates using needles. So someone would shoot her up. Yeah. So as you know, if you're fucking sober, 92 days, whatever it was, if you use what you were using before, you're fucking gone. Yeah. [51:34] Because your tolerance is gone. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So they dropped... It's a fucking movie. They dropped her off at the stoop of this hospital... [51:41] And she got Narcan. I didn't know any of this part. I wasn't privy to this yet. I'm just driving around looking for her. [51:49] And, uh... [51:51] Anyway, she's... [51:52] Just to go back to that environment, I'm like, I'm out of money. I got to send you back home to Vancouver. And she's like, you put me to Vancouver, I'm going to die. [52:02] And I'm like, well, it ain't working well here either. And she was at a psych ward on 34th and Lamar. That was a fucked up story. But for like 10 days. But anyway, she went to this place called the Westie House in New Westminster, just outside Vancouver. And it was a woman's only. And she was there. She ran there. And I got her back in. And she got clean and hasn't looked back since. Ran again. I know, man.

[52:32] Those phone calls must be rough. I didn't even know what Al-Anon was. And I was at 360 Bridge. There's a church just across 360 Bridge. [52:46] And... [52:47] I was at this Al-Anon and I'm waiting. I didn't – Shell's has been gone. So I'm waiting for the call of like, okay, she's finally overdosed and gone. [52:58] And so I'm a mess. [52:59] And I'm in Al-Anon just waiting for this call. And I'm judging everybody in this fucking Al-Anon. Like, there's this woman across from me. She's like, yeah, my husband, he used. And, yeah, I got Christmas with him. And I'm like, fuck, that's easy day. I'm like, you don't even know what the fuck I'm dealing with over here, you know. And then you hear another story and you're like, that's bullshit. You guys are pussies. [53:27] All in my head. [53:29] So I just listen. It does help or help me a lot. And I come out in this one guy. [53:35] He's like, hey. [53:37] You're heavy. You got to... [53:39] you want to talk or anything? You didn't say a word in there. And, and I'm like, right when he said that my sis called and she was downtown Vancouver and she had just used and got scared straight. Um, [53:52] Some guy had followed her and... [53:54] sexually abused a friend of hers in front of her and she's like i can't do this no more so she was scared straight and she's like that's what got her sober she got she was downtown vancouver called me and she's like can you get me back in westy house

[54:08] And I call Susan was her name. [54:10] And, um... [54:12] call her back and I'm throwing everything. I'm like, I will fucking support you guys. Can you give us a bed? Can you get her one more time? I know she's not allowed back and all this. And she goes, I'll call you back. And she got, she, [54:25] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. Yes, that means you in Illinois. [54:55] up with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours if you or someone you know has a gambling problem crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER 21 and over illinois only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [55:23] This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts.

[55:53] system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive discount. Right now, you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com slash rogan. That's half [56:23] got her bed and she was there nine months. Wow. Yeah. [56:27] Yeah. So what was it that finally... [56:31] Kept her sober. [56:32] Did she say? That's a fucking good question. Jamie, can you tell Jeff to bring in the coffee? [56:39] Thank you. [56:40] That's a good question. [56:44] I know at times it was like, we have nieces and nephews, and she wanted to get clean for them, but that didn't last. [56:52] I think it was... [56:54] that moment of getting scared straight like you just can't keep doing this [57:00] Rock bottom. Yeah. I think that's what it is. It's so subjective, right? Yeah. We all know somebody that's like, I stopped drinking yesterday. Yep. Done. [57:10] Like my buddy over there, you just met. [57:14] He went for a few weeks and he hasn't had booze since. [57:19] Sometimes it just clicks and they're like, fuck this life. I don't want it anymore. And some just can't.

[57:25] break that habit. But yeah, it varies so much. Oh my God. Thanks, Jimmy. [57:31] but yeah, she's a lot like me too. Super. I'll steal some. Get some dog. Thanks man. Um, yeah, [57:39] Yeah, it's a beautiful story. Tragically beautiful. It ends well. Yeah. But it very well couldn't have. I know. Imagine if that guy didn't say goodbye. What is goodbye? Why goodbye? What the fuck's going on? Yeah, that one guy probably saved your sister's life. And I want to fucking kill that guy, by the way. Because he relapsed with her and used with her at that drug house. Yeah. Fuck, man. I know, man. So that, for me, is a big part of Howler's Ridge. [58:09] And then with the vets, as we just chatted, I love these guys and the families – [58:15] And so hopefully we'll have – you talk about Ibogaine. I know we can't do that in Montana yet, hopefully. But I hope up there on Howler's Ridge we can – [58:26] maybe in a year or two. We'll see what happens, that we can do some of that up there. Well, I think it's going to be so effective in Texas that it's going to spread. And I think the fact that they're starting with veterans, which is – [58:39] These guys don't get... [58:41] any support. I know. You think about what they have to go through when they go off to war, the things that they experience, and then they come back and they've lost friends and they've seen their buddies get blown up in front of them. They're all fucked up, and then they're hooked on pills. And the pills are just...

[59:00] you can cookie monster a fucking jar if you want, and they'll refill you like... [59:04] And there's different outlets like Virginia, Hawaii, Florida, doctors in each one that are sending you. Yep, yep. And it's... [59:12] That's you literally at your doorstep. You're getting these jars of pills. It's like you're giving. And these guys obviously have addictive personalities. That's what makes them so fucking great. Yeah. That's one thing. That's a weird thing, right? The addictive tendency can actually make you great at something. Yeah. Well, beautiful, right? Yeah. If you use it. If you harness it. But it can go sideways on you. [59:38] Which is really weird. It is. That's one thing, and it's funny because not that I'm cocky or was cocky with Dark Wolf, but I had played this guy already before, and I lose my trident in it, and Mendoza's kind of getting the parade rest ready and the whole ceremony ready for it. [59:57] And he's... [59:58] just a brother of mine and [1:00:01] And it was a big moment that I learned because these workups, say you work up on a Thursday, right? [1:00:07] And you go at 2 a.m. to 7 a.m. And you go take a couple guys out and you come back. [1:00:14] Whatever, celebrate. [1:00:16] Probably have a few drinks and then you have another workup on Tuesday. But let's say you and I go in the fight and I die. [1:00:25] on that Thursday op. [1:00:27] You're back in workup. [1:00:29] Tuesday morning. So this is one thing that really kind of punched me when I was talking to Mendoza because he was talking about some stories where he lost somebody and...

[1:00:39] I was like, there's literally no fucking time to mourn. There's no time to register the loss of this. So you're just harnessing this pain and all these emotions. [1:00:50] And you're just like, okay, I guess I'm back in the fight. [1:00:53] And I'm going to do this for at least another few months before I'm out on my six-month [1:00:58] tour. And that really kind of knocked me out and that set me free to play this guy a lot more like just knee-jerk emotion and [1:01:07] way more of a live wire because it's like we talk about [1:01:14] how subjective mourning is. You know, it's like everyone mourns differently. Yeah. So it's like I just made that choice with Ben of just like, this guy's just a fucking mess. And let him just emotionally make these decisions then. [1:01:28] And that's where I took them. Did you have conversations with other vets that were addicts and that were fucked up from war and just had all sorts of different kinds of ways of dealing with trauma? All the time. Yeah. All the time. It's so common. [1:01:44] It really is. It's insanely common. Yeah. It only makes sense. It would be crazy if it wasn't common. I know. Yeah, you're right. Just think of what you're asking them to do. I know. And we don't know the half of it. No. We really don't. We don't know any of it. We don't experience it. If you don't physically experience it, you're just making things up. Yeah. You know? Yeah. [1:02:02] And I mean... [1:02:04] I think obviously with Red Wings and stuff like that, with Lone, but then you talk to these guys in between takes, right?

[1:02:11] And they're pretty transparent, which is beautiful that they're talking about it and all this. But it's like, where are they putting this fucking energy after they're out? [1:02:21] Like, they got to find another purpose that's so fucking heightened when you're serving. [1:02:26] There's no bigger purpose. [1:02:28] You're fucking killing bad guys. [1:02:30] Like that's incredible. With your brothers right next to you. [1:02:33] Like, that's a heavy fucking thing to carry. And then when they come out, now what? Right. I'm going to go walk fucking Walmart and just be a dad and... [1:02:44] That's just a whole other life. That's one of the things I really loved about Hurt Locker. Yeah, fuck me. That was great. It was such a good movie. Yeah. And it was so good. The way he... [1:02:55] explained or or the way it played out how this guy just could not go back to normal like it just wasn't working he he didn't give a fuck he'd rather be back out there yeah down i mean you look at marcus too after red wings he went back to ramadi yeah which is wanted to die with his boots on i mean these guys are fucking this is kind of the ufc right of like these guys are modern day [1:03:25] It's like you've got a guy like Marcus or Mendoza or these guys that are just – [1:03:30] truly born warriors. Yeah. There's just a, they are a different breed. Well, that's why they get it through buds too. Yeah. You got to be a different kind of human. Yeah. [1:03:39] Yeah, more mental than physical. Yeah. I mean, Mendoza was running Buds, too. And he would say, a lot of times, you look at these fucking scrawny guys. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Those are the ones that make it. And then you've got the D1 athletes that haven't had or gone through a whole lot because they're gifted athletically. Right. Up here, though, they're not as strong. Uh-huh. And that fucking scrawny guy over there is bringing that D1 athlete with them. Yeah. Yeah, those stories. That's kind of the case with fighters, too, sometimes.

[1:04:09] that wind up being champions because they're tougher and they work harder. Yeah. Because they don't have it given to them easily. They can't half-ass in the gym. They have to be all in. Yeah. [1:04:21] Yeah. It's the life. Yeah. It's the sacrifice. What are you willing to do? And you, you, you know, you have to be all in in that job. Both jobs. Yeah. And comfort can kill you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. [1:04:34] In everybody's life. Yeah. Yeah. I hate it. I know. I know. I hate it. I know, man. I would have thought that one day that I'd be wealthy, that I'd be just fucking chilling and going to the beach. Now you're going even harder. Like, no, I'm in a fucking cold pledge every morning. Yeah. Yeah, no, I fucking hate it. I think it's the enemy. [1:04:51] It really is. The enemy of happiness. Yeah. It really is. Even like me with acting, it's like I live for it. I love it. [1:05:00] And I honestly do believe I've just worked my way through stubbornly. Like I'll just outwork people. It's not like I was gifted this talent or it truly isn't. I'll just outwork people. And then now it's like 44 now, which is crazy. [1:05:16] And, um, [1:05:17] Now I'm starting to be like, okay, [1:05:20] You're thinking about kids. You're thinking about, I need a little more balance. Mm-hmm. [1:05:25] But then I start this balance. [1:05:28] and [1:05:29] It scares the fuck out of me, and I don't like it. How does this scare you? [1:05:32] So [1:05:33] Just it's the comfort, right? It's like, oh, Kitsch, don't take this. Just go keep fly fishing. Keep, you know, just go on a motorcycle trip, which is great, and I'll still do it. But I'm just so conscious of it, of like, don't get fucking comfortable. Don't think. Don't rest on your work, you know? Comfort's not bad if you earn it. Right. But you got to earn the fuck out of it. Yeah. Like, when you're sitting on that couch, you know that you actually need to recover. Yeah, true. Like, if you're going to keep going, you need to recover.

[1:06:03] watching South Park is probably good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually like Madison. Yeah, yeah. You know, just fucking let me just zone out and jiggle. True, true. Yeah. Yeah. [1:06:11] But there is that, I think, I don't know, do you have that with the fear of failure still? Of just like... [1:06:18] Of it all falling apart? That and, like, I'm on set in two weeks and I'm fucking... [1:06:24] scared yeah and it's a heavy roll shit ton of dialogue that's because you're doing the right thing i know it's what you're supposed to be doing but i can't sit on that fucking couch because i'm like what the fuck are you doing well now you can't sit on the couch yeah it's getting ready yeah go time yeah but that's why you you're doing what you do i mean you you have to be a little scared of what you do you have to be yeah like monday i'm going elk hunting yeah i'm kind [1:06:54] because it's hard. Yeah, it is. I got in shape. I did a lot of cardio, a lot of leg workouts because you're huffing it up those mountains. I shot... [1:07:03] three hours of arrows today fuck three fucking arrows i'm pulling three hours i'm pulling back an 80 pound bow no joke yeah it's it's a lot of work man i work hard but it's because when it's there you want to be prepared yeah leading up to it i get like fucking super serious i get like really like where it's it's with me all day long i know it with me when i put on my underwear with me when i'm sitting in the cold plunge i'm thinking about the mountains yeah it's a hard

[1:07:33] it because i love it and but it's also because it's a hard thing to do and when you're getting ready to do like a role that's like a fucking intense role the nerves are a good thing they're your friend yeah that truly keeps you honest feeling yeah you can't eat like that's that's your friend or you're yeah looking through my girlfriend yeah you barely listen running lines yep yep fucking what if i do this in this scene uh-huh [1:07:55] But they want to talk about Taylor Swift's engagement, right? [1:07:59] Like, I can't. I can't hear it. And then you're an asshole. Right. Like, what did you say? You're not listening. I was listening. I just spaced out for a second. I'm sorry. Yeah. And then you go back to being spaced out after apologizing. [1:08:14] Or I'll just literally be like, I'm going on a bike ride. And I'm gone for two, three hours. And then I'm running shit in my head or. [1:08:22] It's so true. But it's the same. I equate it to when we're rolling. It's like you ain't hiding no more, kids. You're in it. It's the same thing. Once you get exposed to that elk... [1:08:33] It's like, this is your fucking moment. Yeah, you're right. We're going to see if you did the work. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. I think people – everyone needs something like that. But it scares people so they shy away from it and they look towards something that's guaranteed. You get a guaranteed paycheck. It's easy. It's simple. But that's the – [1:08:52] That's your enemy. Yeah. That's how your life becomes this just dull shade of gray. Yeah. You know? Yeah. [1:09:00] I know. Yeah, not good. You're very fortunate. You're very fortunate you've been able to do what you love and that what you love is, you know, it's very exciting. Yeah. And it's very exciting to other people. It's very rewarding. Yeah. I fucking loved you in American Prime Evil. Oh, thanks. That role. That was my gladiator. That was intense. That one scene where you're getting changed and you see all the fucking cuts all over your body. Oh, yeah. You're like, whoa. Yeah.

[1:09:30] That scene, I lost a bunch of weight for it. [1:09:33] Um... [1:09:34] And then Howard Berger did my makeup for that, and he's fucking incredible. And that scene... [1:09:40] Man. That scene meant a lot. It's everything. You saw who that guy is raw, naked. With his Shoshone brother. Starving, covered in scars. And then goes into that teepee with the chief, the mother of his wife that he lost. And I wrote that scene, man. Whoa. Yeah. Whoa. And so Pete and I came up with It's Only Pain. [1:10:10] this that show and you know the scene where a bone cut out yeah why they cut a bone out so there's a scene where i go down to get horses [1:10:21] And I kill five or six guys at the skinning camp. And I think it's episode two. And Betty Gilpin, who's amazing, comes down. And she's like, didn't trust me. And she comes down. I have to kill these guys. During that sequence, I broke my foot. And they call cut. And I go to... [1:10:39] Dashnaw, the stunt coordinator. [1:10:43] I'm like, oh, it's broken. [1:10:44] And he's like, I've worked with him for 15 years. And he's like, don't fuck with me. [1:10:49] And I'm like, no, Dash, it's broken. [1:10:52] I got the shooting pain in my groin and he's like, [1:10:56] Get the fuck out of here. [1:10:57] And I'm like, yeah. So finish the scene, and they spray fucking BioFreeze on my foot. And I'm like, guys.

[1:11:06] It's broken. Like, I'm fucked. And so I go to Bozeman, and he's like, it's this small bone right on the side of your foot. [1:11:14] Right there. [1:11:15] That goes up and down right here. Next to your toe? Connecting my big toe. It's on the side bone on my big toe. Uh-huh. And so he's like, oh, you can wear a boot. [1:11:26] It's a small bone, so you won't need to, it'll heal itself. So I go back, and I'm in a boot doing this fucking show. And I got a 6'6 Wrangler. So when I get off that horse, 90% of the time, I think his name's BJ. BJ. [1:11:42] Great dude big cowboy [1:11:45] And he's below me off camera taking my weight. [1:11:50] because i can't step off the horse because i'm in a fucking boot medical boot yeah and then uh six weeks goes by or a month and i go back to bozeman and take my boot off and uh he does one last x-ray and he's like you need to be in surgery today oh no that's what i said [1:12:07] That's a shitty call to Netflix and Pete. And so I got surgery. And then right before surgery... [1:12:17] He's like, we can pin it, but you're going to be super active. Yeah. [1:12:21] and it may not take, or I can cut it out. [1:12:25] and put bone wax on it. [1:12:27] Bone wax? Yeah, I didn't know there was a thing of that either. What is bone wax? I don't know either.

[1:12:33] So you just said cut it? Yeah. Because you wanted to go back to work. Yeah. So they cut a chunk of bone off. Yeah. And what is bone wax? I think it just is a protective coating over it. Ooh, look at this. Commonly supplied in sterile sticks usually requires softening before it can be applied. It's generally made of beeswax. Softening agent uses paraffin or petroleum jelly, and it's smeared across the bleeding edge of the bone. [1:12:57] blocking the holes and causing immediate bone hemostasis. [1:13:02] Still don't know what it means. I don't know what this means. Is this a tamponade effect? Closure of blockage as if by a tampon, especially to stop bleeding. You have a tampon on your foot, bro. Yeah, I do. Wow, that's crazy. Oh, God. So does your foot fuck with you now? Yeah. [1:13:21] It's if I'm fly fishing or on uneven ground. [1:13:25] Or if I'm doing, you know, if I'm tracking or doing something side-hilling, which I fucking hate. Right. Side-hill hiking, I hate it. I have a terrible knee as well. That's where it bites. Yeah. Yeah. And then... [1:13:40] Yeah, so I dealt with that. We had to – I had to – [1:13:44] be on the couch for six weeks, but my first day back was those two scenes and I had called Pete and I'm like, hey, I wrote this scene. I'd love because that scene was exposition with my mom. At first, we were talking about Red Feather and stuff. And I'm like, this is my first day back after losing them that I, [1:14:03] Haven't seen her since I've lost her daughter and her grandson. So this guy can't get through anything.

[1:14:10] So that was the crutch, and thank you for noticing. That's the crutch of that whole arc to that guy. [1:14:15] Yeah, it was an intense scene because it was so realistic. Yeah. Like, well, that's what a guy would look like. Yeah. I hate when you see someone who looks like they've been living an easy life. Yeah. And they take their shirt off and they're supposed to be like in some rugged outdoor environment. They just look soft. Yeah. Or he's stacked and looks incredible. Nice tan. Looks like he's been in the gym. Yeah. Eating creatine. No, you look like a hard man. Like a hard man who's been through some fucking hand-to-hand combat. Yeah. [1:14:42] It looked very realistic. Yeah. [1:14:44] You had to starve yourself for that? Yeah. How much did you have to lose? This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. [1:15:14] with qualified candidates instantly. And their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.

[1:15:44] ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees. Hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from Blinds.com. [1:16:14] handle everything they've got you covered it's all online so you can shop whenever you want but still have access to real design professionals they'll even send free samples blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years and they back everything with a 100 satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence right now my listeners can get an exclusive 40 off when you spend 500 or more at blinds.com and use the promo code rogan 40 limited time offer blinds.com [1:16:44] promo code rogan 40 rules and restrictions apply just to get i had time i had time which was great um i lost 30 for that whoa yeah that's a lot of weight yeah [1:16:59] But I had done it. I did this one film called The Bang Bang Club here. I was just living off Lamar here. [1:17:06] I play this drug-addicted true story about these war photographers during the apartheid, right before the first free election, Mandela's election. Kevin Carter is his name. He won a Pulitzer Prize.

[1:17:19] for this epic shot that he took. Got a lot of flack for it and ended up taking his own life. [1:17:26] But that, I had 30 days to prep, and I lost 35 in 30 days. Whoa. And I remember going just over I-35 here to this dock, and my heart rate was fucking low 20s. Oh, God. Because all I was doing was running, coffee, and I would... [1:17:45] The broth can be super salty, sodium heavy, so I'd filter that and then just have broth and broccoli for dinner. Oh, my God. You're just starving yourself. Yeah, it was bad. And then I got a thyroid problem from that. And that doc was like... [1:18:02] hey, you're going to fail this physical, just so you know. And I'm like, what do I got to do? I'm going to Africa next week. And he's like, do some push-ups. [1:18:13] So I did push-ups and got my heart rate into the low 40s. And he's like, okay. Wow. I know. That's crazy. Yeah. I was hurting on that. Because you were probably kind of dying. Yeah. [1:18:24] That's nuts, dude. And then I was hurting. They would shoot me out on Bang Bang Club. Like, just shoot your coverage and go. Go back to bed. And then I ended up getting a nutritionist there. [1:18:37] And she helped me a little bit. But that was a quick shoot. But... [1:18:41] That's where I think I fucked my body on that one. Wow. And then Koresh again, lost weight for that. That was great, by the way. Thanks. That fucking whole Koresh story is so crazy. I know, man. What is it like doing that movie? Because it's another real life. Yeah.

[1:18:57] I was just prepping right there too. [1:19:01] Um... [1:19:02] That was almost too long a prep. Here's me saying I love prep, but I had six months to get into that headspace. And it just – the last month, I tried to pull out of the show. Really? Yeah, because I was just – this is – I was just – you're holding, hoarding all this energy. And I lost the weight – [1:19:21] Learning to play guitar and sing, which was a fucking comedy. I'm fucking terrible. He was terrible, too, though. Yeah, he was. That literally helped me. I'd listen to Dave, and I'd be like, wow. That guy sucked. Yeah, he's shit. [1:19:37] He genuinely helped me. I have no idea how he got people to follow him with that fucking terrible singing. If I was in that call, I'd go, yo, we've got to reevaluate. This guy is not Christ. He is not the leader. He's actually kind of fucking terrible, right? Should we leave? [1:19:51] his fucking music sucks yeah [1:19:55] What is it like getting in the headspace of someone who's that depraved too and who has that kind of like sick control over people? Yeah. [1:20:08] Why? Figure out the why. Did you figure it out? Yeah, I think so. Yeah? Go to his childhood, which was fucking terrible. Of course. [1:20:19] Like, [1:20:20] You don't become a cult leader. Everything's awesome when you're a kid. Two great, healthy parents. Always giving you hugs. Siblings. And you decide to be a cult leader. Yeah. Yeah. He memorized the Bible by 15. Whoa. Which is fucking. That's intense. That says enough right there. That's intense. But he was like tied to a radiator on his birthday. Oh, Jesus. Like abused pretty hard. I almost bought his car.

[1:20:45] Oh, my God. I'm real close to pulling the trigger on his car. He had a 1968 Camaro, and a buddy of mine texted me and said, yo, David Koresh's car for sale, and he knows I'm a car head. Are you? I love cars, especially old muscle cars. Yeah. I got a bunch of them, and I have a 69 Camaro. And I was thinking about, at that time, I didn't have any Camaros, but I was thinking about getting a 68 or a 69 or a 67. I like the 69s a little more, a little wide body. But then I found out it was Koresh's car. [1:21:15] Comedy Store and David Koresh's Mustang. In Texas. Or David Koresh's Camaro, rather. But then I thought about it and I said, you know what? [1:21:22] I don't want it. [1:21:23] I don't want... [1:21:25] anything from that guy i don't want it's a mojo i don't want i don't want to hold his steering wheel no i don't want to sit in his seat i don't want it no i don't want it also what a piece of shit that guy's a preacher he's driving around a muscle car like for sure right there and then terrible what does that tell you muscle car ego a little bit of an ego yeah i mean not that you can't enjoy my i love them i think they're one of the greatest accomplishments of american [1:21:55] I love them. I'm that way with motorcycles, too. And I got to set. We shot, actually, and Waco wanted nothing to do with us. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. [1:22:04] Rightfully so. So we shot that in Santa Fe. I'd like to change that. Yeah, man. [1:22:11] Waco's a great town, by the way. Yeah. It's grown enormously, too.

[1:22:16] Um... [1:22:17] But his motorcycle... [1:22:19] came for sale and obviously they knew we were making it i kicked tires on it and uh they wanted just it was probably worth two grand they wanted 15 or something and it was just like go fuck yourself right they were just honestly like you just said what am i gonna do with his moto yeah i thought it was i thought it was silly at first and then after a while i'll be like i can't do this yeah yeah [1:22:42] Before we opened up the comedy mothership in town, I was under contract for this place called the One World Theater that was also owned by a cult. Yeah. No way. Yeah, the One World Theater, you know where it is? No. Well, this is what's fucked up about the story. Ron White performed there once because they have concerts there. And Ron White did stand up and we were talking about opening up a club and he said, you should buy that place down on B Cave. It's the fucking shit. It's a beautiful theater. I think it's for sale. I played there once. It's amazing. [1:23:12] Ron White's the fucking man. If he tells me, I'll go check it out. And I check it out and I'm like, yeah, we could do this. Let's do it. And so sign the contracts, all that. And then I get a call from my friend Adam. He goes, hey, did you ever watch the documentary on that cult? I'm like, oh, no, there's a documentary. The documentary is called Holy Hell. And it's about a guy who is a gay porn star and a hypnotist. There was a yoga instructor. Oh, my God. Checking every box. Yep. So yoga instructor in Hollywood. And then. [1:23:40] The cult in Waco gets taken down and then he is on the run now because now the cult awareness network starts going after all these cults after Waco. They're like, hey, you know, people's children are getting kidnapped essentially by these fucking maniacs. And, you know, winds up being like Waco. We got to stop these cults. And so he moves to Austin and changes his name.

[1:24:01] And has a – this is the 90s. You could get away with changing your name. No internet. And so this guy has his followers build him this theater so he can dance in front of them. The documentary is bananas. And I see the documentary. I'm like, oh, my God, I got to get out of this. [1:24:20] After I see the documentary, I'm like, I got to get out of this deal. I got to get out. And fortunately, there was a problem. Fortunately, there was a problem because, you know. [1:24:28] You got a bunch of cult members building a place. They're not going to do it to code. No. Just like his residence. Yeah, there was a lot of shit that was wrong, a lot of wacky shit. They didn't want to pay for it. I'm like, let's just – so it cost me a little bit of money, and I got out of it. And then we eventually got the Ritz on 6th Street, and that's the perfect spot anyway. [1:24:47] It was the thing of being in that building, knowing what happened. I'm like, I can't handle this. Different energy there. 100, 200 people – [1:24:57] Wasted their life with this asshole for 20 fucking years. And there was a bunch of them crying at the end of the documentary. Like, I lost my life. My life is meaningless now. I thought I was going to be with them forever. Now I'm a dog walker. I'm like, oh, my God. I know. I can't carry that in this club. I can't feel it. I'd have to tear the building down. In a comedy club. I just thought it would be silly. Oh, building built by a cult. Perfect. We'll take it.

[1:25:27] The guy wants all the money and he wants to fuck everybody. It's almost every one of them has the same profile. And fear-based. [1:25:35] Always. Always. Always fear-based. Always everybody else is the enemy. I'm the solution. [1:25:41] The nutty thing about this guy, though, is that he would do this thing to these people called the knowing. And you had to earn it. And when you earned it, it was this very special ceremonious moment. And he would put his hands on their head and he would do something to them. And these people would feel God. They would experience God. And I know that it has to be some sort of a placebo effect or psychosomatic, something where your brain triggers this energy. [1:26:11] I fucking hated him. I wasted my – they all talked about that moment like it was the greatest moment of their life still. They're like, I gained a connection to God and to the universe that to this day was the most profound and loving moment of my life. [1:26:28] It's like, yeah, the guy was a total piece of shit. Scam artist, con man, liar. Everything was wrong. Yet, man. [1:26:36] He was still capable of doing that thing to them. Condition them over years. He had them thinking about the moment that it was going to come one day. And then he would take it away from them. And then one person would get it and they would all sit around and watch. And they're like, when am I going to get it? But when they got it, they would all be like, no. [1:26:57] No.

[1:26:57] Because we know that the brain produces psychedelic chemicals, and I guess you can trick it, which is, I think, what a near-death experience is. I think a near-death experience, your body's like, hey, it's over. Flood the gates. Yeah. And then it rolls through, and then you go down the tunnel and light and all the jazz, and you meet dead people. Yeah. I think this is possible. [1:27:21] With everybody, you just have to achieve the right state of mind. I know people in kundalini yoga, the people that are like heavy into it can fucking completely trip balls. Really? I had a buddy of mine who had done DMT. Oh, yeah. And then he really done DMT a couple of times. So he knew what the experience was. And then he really got into kundalini yoga. And he was doing it for like six months. And then what is kundalini? It's a very specific kind of yoga that involves like deep breath work. And there's a lot of like head bobbing. It's very strange. [1:27:51] It's you achieve a DMT-like state. He's like, you achieve a full-on psychedelic experience doing Kundalini. And I'm like, whoa. And I've always thought about trying it and practicing it. [1:28:03] Eh. [1:28:03] Yeah, same. I don't have the time. I don't have the time. It's one of those things. I'm just too busy. I can't think about some new thing to be obsessed with. But my point is that there is some little trigger in your brain that if you can trick your brain into snapping over to on, it just – I believe that part. This fucking cult guy did it to those people. As much as they hated him, as much as they knew he was a fraud, he fucked everybody. The crazy thing is like they didn't know that everybody was getting fucked.

[1:28:33] So like one guy leaves the cult and he sends out this group email like, hey, this guy's been hypnotizing me and fucking me for like 10 years. And they're all like, I thought it was only me. Yeah. And then it became crazy where everybody had a story. Everybody had a story. He would charge them money for these experiences. And then he'd fuck them. Of course. [1:28:53] Jesus. Hilarious. But [1:28:55] Terrible. [1:28:56] And so I didn't want that building. [1:29:00] Like I didn't want Koresh's car. Let me look at that contract again. No. So when you were getting close and you wanted to pull out, was it just the heaviness of carrying around this guy's weight? Yeah. [1:29:10] Yeah. And then I called my manager, Steph, and she's like, [1:29:16] Give it a day. And then the Dowdle brothers who wrote and directed, terrific guys. And I called John. And I think one thing that set me free probably on month three, because I was really stuck on everything we've just said of like, why am I playing some guy that's pretty fucking reprehensible in a lot of ways. And a real person. Yeah. We did real damage to people. [1:29:43] But I was judging him. [1:29:45] And that was like really a big block for me because I couldn't understand him more. And so once I started to not cast judgment or my own judgment on him and just trying to understand and root him, then I was like, okay, I'm going to fly now. Of like, this is his childhood. This is why he's doing this. And so it's your guys' job can judge away and do all this. But for me to play this guy, I can't bring that to him. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:30:15] So that helped a lot. You've got to be that piece of shit. Yeah. Yeah. I've got to do it and try and root that. When you got done with the role, was it like a thing that you had to cast off yourself? Bang Bang Club fucked me. I was hurting pretty bad after. I didn't know my process very well, and, you know... [1:30:33] Kevin Carter was just really, really troubled. [1:30:37] And I think it was Mandrax, which is an animal tranquilizer that he would take. Oh, boy. Yeah. Yeah. [1:30:44] And he would have... [1:30:45] night terrors and all this there's photos of him like they called it the bang bang because they had these police scanners and once they would this early 90s uh in south africa and once they heard it on the scanner it's like a bang bang and they would be there a lot of times before the cops like some kind of civil rights or civil fight would happen and they would get hear it on the scanner and they'd go like scooby-doo kind of shit they'd get there before the cops a lot of [1:31:15] and they'd be in the middle of this shooting it, photographing it. And you see pics of Kev that are just like him in like one shoe. [1:31:25] high [1:31:26] hiding behind like a fucking barrel in the middle of this gunfight. Like they would get really into it. And then he was a guy that just kind of took everything away. [1:31:37] to heart, you know, of just, he would see some fucking pretty abysmal shit and just be like, take it, you know, wear it. And, uh, it just,

[1:31:47] hammered him. And so he would take these drugs and just to sleep and just to get over or get through it. Um, [1:31:54] But yeah, that was really tough coming out of him just because I didn't [1:31:58] know myself enough or process, be able to really kind of separate. You almost like became a part of him. Yeah. Yep. And then the weight and all that. And then with... [1:32:09] Dave. [1:32:11] Um... [1:32:13] Yeah, I was so ready to gain the weight back and just wipe my hands with it. I always go on a motorcycle trip after, and that sets me free, helps me a lot. I'll write letters and just burn them. That helps a lot. They say when you're like, if I get therapy or something, it's like write a letter and literally watch it burn. And that is something like that's a mind trick, I'm sure. Just like if there's trauma or something. Figure out a way to let it go that way. Yeah. Like a ceremonial purging. Exactly. [1:32:43] Yeah. Yeah. [1:32:44] So Bang Bang was harder than Koresh? Yeah, yeah. [1:32:48] On me. Because you hadn't been used to carrying around someone else's thoughts. Exactly. And that was the first time... [1:32:56] I started having really bad nightmares in South Africa. [1:33:00] and [1:33:01] And I just, that started fucking with me a lot. And then I was really happy. It was only a four-week shoot. Um... [1:33:09] Did you try that tranquilizer, whatever the fuck it is? No. You know what it's like? No. I've only smoked weed three times in my life. Nothing else? Nothing else. Little booze?

[1:33:17] Little booze, yeah. Yeah. First time was... But just weed. Yeah. Wow. Savages. [1:33:25] With Oliver Stone. Oh, no. Oliver goes hard. He does. I was surprised he still smokes weed. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I was in rehearsal, and he asked me, and I hadn't smoked weed ever before. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. [1:33:40] And I'm playing this guy, obviously a SEAL, but that smokes weed, grows weed, sells weed, gets into the cartel. [1:33:48] And you smoked with Oliver Stone the first time? No, my first time he gave me some of his medicinal alcohol. [1:33:54] And I went with a buddy who smokes weed all the time. And I was staying at the Shangri-La in Santa Monica while we were filming. And my buddy brought over... [1:34:05] A bong. A water bong. Oh, no. [1:34:08] That's not how you do it. If you could do it the first time, this is what I'd tell you to do. Just go like this. [1:34:14] That's it. Really? That's it. Just a little hit. You've got to dip your toes in there. That drug is also known as quaaludes. Oh. Wow. Interesting. [1:34:25] That's what quaaludes are. Wow. Quaaludes is a brand name for it. What does it say it's doing to your brain? It's a muscle relaxer or insomnia. There you go. How do you say that word? Methylqualone? Methylqualone? [1:34:39] Methaqualone? [1:34:42] Combination of a drug known as Mandrax, sold primarily in Europe, containing 250 milligrams of methoqualone and 20 milligrams of diphenhydramine. Diphenhydramine? In a single tablet. Whoa.

[1:34:59] Commercial production was discontinued in many countries during the mid-1980s due to widespread misuse, addiction, and associated public health concerns. Yeah. [1:35:08] Yeah, you know when a popular drug gets pulled. [1:35:12] It's pretty bad. Yeah, that was no joke. So just because that was the first time you'd ever tried carrying around someone's thoughts, that was worse? Because he was so fucked up. Yeah. And I was that actor where it was like, I got to be in trauma too then. Right, right, right, right. Definitely. Real. Yeah. But it comes out. That's the fucked up thing. Yeah, it does. It comes out in the role. It seems real. [1:35:38] Fucker's that guy and there will be blood. You believe it. I drink your milkshake. He's fucking there, man. He's dialed in. He's the best. But it's just that process has got to be fucking soul crushing. Yeah. Because you lose you. You lose you and now you're some fucker. [1:35:59] When you're a small business owner, you're always looking for the next big thing. Whether you're a gym owner looking to expand, a store stocking up for a busy season, or a restaurant owner planning a new menu. [1:36:10] you'll always need capital to grow. [1:36:12] But traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. [1:36:17] That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding. [1:36:21] Their online application takes less than five minutes and won't impact your personal credit score. [1:36:27] With over two decades of expertise, it's no surprise business owners keep voting Cardiff, America's favorite small business lender.

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[1:38:17] And then you're just way more conscious of it. Of like, okay. Like, even with relationships. Of like, okay, that's... I can get quite short. Like, be... Like, true detective, I was oddly an asshole through the whole thing. And I had my best friend of 30 years with me, helping me on that. And I was drinking, like, to black out. And that's not me. I don't drink much. But I was just a fucking mess. And my buddy was, like... [1:38:46] played in the NHL, AHL, was a fighter. He would fucking murder me. You'd get shitty with him? Really shitty with him. [1:38:56] And I would poke him, man. That's booze, bro. I know. It's Jack. It's the worst. I know, man. It's the worst for that. So many drunk people get themselves into situations that they really should not be in. [1:39:08] And I would poke him, man, and we'd go to this shithole bar. It's called Sports Harbor. I don't even know if it's open anymore. But I would fuck around. And I didn't have to find out, but I definitely was getting that really I was conscious of it. And he would have to have a moment with me of like, hey, you said this last night. Do you think it was partly because you're trying to play a detective and detectives are all fucked up? Yeah, all fucked up. In the closet, just a mess. [1:39:37] So do you think that's what it was like? Yeah, I do yeah, because after I shed it or after it wrapped as with my sis right after but I was fine. I didn't touch anything but during I was no bueno Wow, even getting ready for this it's I play this director of corrections in Texas. It's a true story about the longest.

[1:40:00] hostage situation in the U.S. in a prison. It's 11-day hostage negotiation, and Freddy Carrasco is going to be played by Luna, Diego Luna, who's... I can't wait to see what he fucking does with this. But I play the... [1:40:17] director of corrections, so we're negotiating for 11 days. And he's got to be quite hard on the guys in his war room. [1:40:27] And he kind of comes in and he takes over the negotiation. [1:40:32] And he's never done a negotiation before. So he makes... [1:40:36] a mistake here or there, and he... [1:40:38] He fucking pays the piper psychologically for it because it doesn't end great. [1:40:43] And, um, [1:40:45] And so I'm starting to get into that mindset. And when I'm with a buddy or something like that, I can be quite short. And you start to see it filtering in. I'm like, okay. [1:40:55] Jim is settling in me. Like I can start to feel it a little bit more. I get a little more reactionary. Yeah. Yeah. That's so creepy. It's like you're getting haunted. You're kind of getting haunted by your characters. Dude, that's why you're so good. Thanks. I think there's something to that, man, because you're fucking believable. Like I've seen you in a bunch of movies, but it doesn't matter whatever the fuck you're doing. I believe, even though I know, oh, that's Taylor Kitsch. Yeah. [1:41:25] I've seen him in this. I've seen him in that. When you're in that, the same as the Daniel Day Lewis thing, he's that guy. He's that fucking guy. And even though you know who he is, that's how good he is, that he's still that guy even though you know who the fuck that is. I know. It's like the trick works. That fucking monologue Daniel Day has on the porch to his brother, I think it is, where he goes, I don't like people. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:41:50] Oh. All fucking time. Yeah. He is the best to do it. Such a complicated character he played, too. I know. There was so much to it. He's got something coming out soon, too. His son, I think, directed it. [1:42:04] Which is going to be a fucking banger. I think he plays a soldier that comes back. Oh, I saw a trailer. Yeah, that's right. I saw a trailer recently. Yeah. That fucking thing of carrying a guy around like that, whether it's the detective or Koresh or the bang bang guy, it's like that's got to be fucking exhausting. Yeah. [1:42:26] Because you're like real light in real life. You're friendly and like, hey, what's up? How are you doing? Because I didn't know. I didn't know what you're going to be like. Everybody's different, you know? I heard horror stories of you. [1:42:39] Have you really? No. [1:42:42] I try to be nice. I was just with Sheridan the other day. Oh, Taylor? I love that guy. Yeah, man. I fucking love him. And of course, Pete and every car. Everyone's like, you're going to have a fucking blast. Yeah. [1:42:55] No, for sure. Everybody told me that about you, too. Oh, great. Yeah. But, you know, you don't know. I know. True. You don't know until you meet someone. But I'm glad I didn't meet you while you're on True Detective in full character. You know, because full character is fucking crazy. You're kind of haunted. Yeah. You got to live it. You got to live it. I think, I mean, you look at anybody that's great at anything. You have to, it's the amount of sacrifice you're willing to give to it. Yeah, you have to be all in all the time.

[1:43:25] and also I don't want to fucking watch it and be like, oh, catch, you didn't. That would kill me. That would fucking kill me. Yeah, watching a guy phone it in is the worst feeling as a consumer of the show. Like a... [1:43:40] passenger on the ride, watching someone phoning in, like, no, dude, do another take. Come on, man. You motherfucker. What are you doing? You going through a divorce? What's going on, man? They're out there, man. You can't lock in? I've worked with some pretty fucking huge names that [1:44:00] have apologized [1:44:02] after a film or at the premiere or something that were like, hey, I'm sorry, man, I just wasn't there. That's crazy. I'm like, no, I know. Yeah. I had Charlie Sheen on yesterday. Oh, no way. Yeah, and he was talking about his time doing anger management, about he was still really fucked up and just doing way too many drugs, and he was trying to be locked in, but he was. He just didn't do it, and then he didn't want to do it anymore, so he was miserable while he was there, and he was all fucked up, [1:44:32] Everybody now is like, I am so really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a sweetheart of a guy like a really nice sober sober. [1:44:38] Eight years. Whoa. Almost eight years. Amazing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Damn. [1:44:42] But, you know, you can see the itch behind his eyes. Right. You know, that's a struggle. That sober is a struggle sober. Yeah. Because that guy went through it for so many years. Yeah. [1:44:51] The stories that he was telling about, like literally how 1 a.m. to 7 a.m. would go by like that. And then all of a sudden someone was pounding on his door. It's time to go to work. He's like, I am high as fuck on crack. And he goes, and so I have to lie in bed. So he'd lie in bed. I try to close my eyes. He goes, I'm not taking a nap. He goes, I'm cracked out of my mind. My whole body's vibrating. And he goes, and then I took an ice cube and I stuck it up my ass. Get out of here. And the ice cube woke him up and got him back.

[1:45:21] falling asleep on the set, and he said, give me a couple minutes, and he shoved an ice cube up his ass. [1:45:31] That movie writes itself. Bro, that guy went so hard. How do you figure that out? You know, you're just going to the fridge. I got to wake up. He's literally falling asleep. How do I wake up? It's shoving ice cube up my ass. I guess it works. What were the other choices? Stick a fork into an electric socket. [1:45:50] How did you get to it? [1:45:51] Ice cube up your asshole. Oh, my God. But he was going that hard. [1:45:57] And, you know, it just. He's so lucky he didn't die. So. Were the uppers and downers and everything. The crack. Well, people that he, the girl he smoked crack with the first time he ever smoked crack with eventually overdosed. [1:46:10] Ah. [1:46:11] He told a story about the first time he smoked crack. This girl who was a crackhead, she gave him a blowjob while he took his first hit of crack. He said, to this day, I can't top that experience. [1:46:21] He goes, to this day. He goes, I probably shouldn't say that. He goes, to this day. This is the greatest moment of my life. Wow. Holy shit. Like, oh, my God. [1:46:32] Isn't there a doc on him that just came out? Yeah, that's what it's about. Yeah. He wrote a book and he did a doc. Oh, he did? Yeah. Yeah. [1:46:38] And now he's doing movies again. Is he? Yes. He's excited to be working again. Wow. He's kind of a little bummed out that it took so long for him to get a job again. But – [1:46:46] Yeah. I mean, you know, you got a lot of investment. Yeah. A lot of money. A lot of insurance on the studio. Yeah. But now he's sober for eight years. Wow. Good for him. Holy shit. What is he, like 60 now? He's in his 60s. Yeah. He actually looks good.

[1:47:02] Does he? So for a long time, he looked terrible. And I said to him, I go, dude, you look better than I've seen you. I mean, I hadn't seen him ever in real life. It was the first time I ever met him. But he looked good. He looked healthy. Remarkable for a guy that's gone through. That's just fucking abused. 20 years of redlining the machine. Just bang! [1:47:24] 20 years of crack. I'm going to watch that doc. Oh, the doc is great. It's really entertaining, too. [1:47:32] It's really all shot. Yeah, really well edited. I mean, that whole family is pretty epic. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Martin, come on. Yeah. [1:47:41] Yeah, no, we talked about Apocalypse Now, too, which is really crazy because he was on the set when he was eight years old. [1:47:47] Eight or ten? Ten? Ten. Ten years old. So he's ten years old in the Philippines on the set of Apocalypse Now while it's being filmed. [1:47:56] Yeah, helicopters, fucking Robert Duvall, everything. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, he was there. Ten. Oh, my God. And your dad's Martin Sheen. And the Philippines back then, too. Dude, I love that movie so much. I wear this watch. This is the Willard. This is a reproduction of the watch that Martin Sheen wore. No way. Apocalypse Now. Sick. It's my favorite watch. Yeah. Because of that. Yeah. Because, well, it's a nice watch. It's a Seiko. Yeah. [1:48:26] because they were like super durable and reliable. Look at that. That's him with his dad. Oh, my God. I didn't fucking get it in there, but.

[1:48:34] Oh my god. [1:48:36] On the set of Apocalypse Now in 1979. That is crazy. Oh, how old was Martin Sheen then? [1:48:45] He looks pretty young. Yeah. I mean. What a legend, though. It seemed like in the movie he was in his early 30s, right? Damn. [1:48:52] Yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy. I mean, you wonder why. And then 10 years later, literally 10 years later, he's doing platoon. [1:49:02] Which is the next epic war movie. Oliver Stone's directing it. Willem Dafoe. Willem Dafoe. Who's the other guy? [1:49:15] Who is it? Yes. Dude, that guy ruled in that movie. Yeah, he did. He seemed so scary. Willem's an amazing guy. Amazing. Yeah. That guy's, I love that guy in everything. He was great in John Wick. He's great in everything. He really is. He's great in everything. Yeah. Willem Dafoe's the fucking man. Yeah. But, like, to be there at 10, watching your dad filming the apocalypse now, and then 10 years later, you're in Platoon, and Oliver North is directing you, and your narration. Oh, excuse me. Oliver North. That's hilarious. [1:49:45] Oliver Stone is directing you and [1:49:47] You're doing the narration. The whole thing is nuts. Ten years. [1:49:51] How do you adjust to that? No, you don't. Well, that's how you adjust. [1:49:56] One word. Yeah. Crack. [1:49:58] Well, it took a while. That was his drug of choice. It started with Coke. When that girl blow him, when the girl gave him a blowjob while he was smoking crack, it was crack from then on out. It was like, I get it now. It's a hard sell. Damn. It's just crazy that...

[1:50:11] It's crazy that he's alive, but one of the things that we were saying that I was talking to him about, I was like, no one... [1:50:18] could understand what you went through because no one has ever done that. No one has ever been Charlie Sheen at 20 years old and been in platoon. And you're the toast of the town and you're a baby. Yeah. You know, you're just getting out of high school, you know, like what? A baby. Yeah. And then the world's your oyster. You're doing blow every night. It's chaos. Just nuts. You're off the rails. And every time you fail, you succeed better. Like every time you go into rehab, there's a better movie waiting for you on the other side. [1:50:48] career-wise. God. And he just keeps going hard. What was the baseball movie? God. Major League. Oh, he was awesome in that movie. The best. Yeah, yeah. I grew up watching that. Yeah, dude. That guy's been in some great fucking movies. He's been in some great fucking movies. But to be him and to, you know, to, no, there's no blueprint for that kind of thing. What was his bottom out? Did he tell you? He kind of, like, there was a bunch of bottoms out. Yeah, [1:51:18] Yeah, it was that, and it was his behavior afterwards, and then he very apologized to Chuck Lorre. He says, we've talked. I've apologized. We're friends now. Thank God. Does he live in L.A.? [1:51:30] Charlie? I wonder. Remember? Did he say? Get the fuck out. I don't think he said. I don't think I asked him. I don't know if he's still there. [1:51:37] but he's been completely sober for eight years. Good for him. Yeah, good for him. Holy shit. Like, if he can do it. Yeah, no shit. That guy can do it. And he seems to get it. Oh, look at that. Both of them back. Behringer was in that, too. That's right.

[1:51:51] That's crazy that they play completely different roles. Berenger in platoon was so scary. Yeah. Scared the fuck out of me. [1:51:59] Damn. I love that shit. Yeah. It's just amazing that guy's life arc to go from being a child on the set of Apocalypse Now to 10 years later starring in the platoon. I think Apocalypse was like a two-year shoot. Three. No. We were talking about it yesterday. Cool. Yeah. I thought it was even more than that. I think the entire production took forever. They just kept asking for money, too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Francis Ford Coppola, man. Yeah. Come on. He nailed it. [1:52:24] To this day, I will watch that movie every now and then and just sit there and go, fuck. Back then, too, to make a movie like that. In 79? Oh, my God. Come on, man. That movie was epic. And it was like one of the first realistic war movies. Then you got Platoon, like you said. Yeah, yeah. Epic. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy that he experienced both of them, one as a child watching his dad and one as a star and all within the span of a decade. [1:52:54] was yesterday, man. I know. And the most formative years. Yeah. Ten. Yeah. Ten. What were you doing at ten? I wasn't in the Philippines. That was the other thing. He was like, I didn't know that that world existed. He goes, like, I was living in Malibu, you know, in this beautiful town on the beach, you know, everybody's, like, happy and wealthy, and his dad's a movie star, and then all of a sudden, he's in the Philippines. And he's like, in fact, this is Fort Coppola. I had all these sketchy people on set all the time. Like, he was an artist.

[1:53:24] He's a nut. Like, everybody, come on and hang out. There's all these weird fucking people around. Three-year fucking shoot. Yeah, in the jungle. Yeah, literally. [1:53:32] using helicopters from the army and was saying that one time the army had to take the helicopters back because there was rebels and there was a like insurgency yeah they had to borrow the helicopters there's another movie they had the whole scene rigged they had the river was rigged with explosives they're ready to film the scene and they were like no we need our helicopters back holy fuck man we need to go kill some people old school movie making no yeah man i mean if you could [1:54:02] what would it be? [1:54:04] Damn. [1:54:07] I mean... [1:54:10] I've got to, I had dinner with Gibson one night. [1:54:13] Mel Gibson. [1:54:14] And I've worked with... [1:54:16] you [1:54:17] What does Brendan Gleeson say? [1:54:20] So maybe Braveheart. That was a big one for me. That was a big one. Yeah. Boy, that was a movie that made everybody want a sword fight afterwards. You just want to go fuck something up. Totally. To get out of that movie. Truly. [1:54:31] God, that one was big. What a movie. When he screams freedom at the end of it. I mean, come on. [1:54:37] When the king pulls the helmet off the king and he sees he's fighting for the other side. And then you cut to Gibson. It's those fucking blue eyes that he's trying to register that it's the king. His king. And that moment for me was just like, oh my god. Just beautiful. Mel Gibson can make a fucking movie dog. He really can. He really can. You know what I watched again recently? Apocalypto. Amazing.

[1:55:08] It's a blockbuster movie where no one speaks English. Yep. [1:55:13] And no big movie stars. Yeah, no big movie stars. No one speaks English. It's fucking amazing. Yeah, it is. And he used, like, real people that lived there. Yeah. [1:55:23] Good for him, man. Good for him. What a fucking swing. Yeah. He's a fascinating guy. Like, his brain is like, he's just rattling all over the place all the time. First time he was on the podcast, he had a pen and he couldn't stop clicking it. Oh, God. Like, the entire time. Click, click, click, click, click, click. I'm like, you fucking crazy person. Put the pen down. [1:55:42] Oh, man. That was a cool dinner, though. He told me some stories of Braveheart. [1:55:48] I'm just riding the horse to all these cameras. We're like ripping the horse to one camera seeing the shot going to the next seeing the shot going in doing the speech going looking to playback just like and then he's like falling asleep standing up you so tired. [1:56:03] Like, that's, like, epic stuff. Yeah. [1:56:06] And talk about realism. [1:56:08] Like those fights. Oh, no, they were horrible. It still holds up. Yeah, 100%. That soundtrack, come on. That was an incredible movie. Like my dad played the bagpipes. [1:56:17] Um... [1:56:18] He played actually in the World Championships in 1995 in Scotland. Really? Yeah. [1:56:23] From Canada? Yeah. Went to Scotland? Yep. Wow. And then – [1:56:28] He, uh, so the pipes to me, like I remember he was an alcoholic and not a lot. He wasn't around a lot. And, um, [1:56:36] I remember some of my best memories were like, you know the fucking sound of the pipes when you're putting air in? It's the worst sound in the world. It's like a rabbit getting bludgeoned. And we would be at Christmas, and all my cousins, his side of the family, and he would walk downstairs, and you could hear these fucking pipes getting air put in. And you could tell he had a few, and he would come up and stand in the middle of the living room.

[1:57:06] And just ripped the pipes. And everyone's just, like, full stop and just beautiful. And he'd play in Barbados. He worked in Barbados doing a lot of, like, the pavers, the golf pass. And he'd play at funerals. Wow. And... [1:57:22] How did he do in the World Championships? I don't know. That's a good question, but it's a great story. [1:57:29] So Primeval, I was fly fishing in the Madison, just West Yellowstone. I had four days off. So I went home to Bozeman and was fly fishing. Only my favorite spot in West Yellowstone. My bro calls me, and I'm like, I just caught like a 20-inch rainbow or something. And I'm fucking ripping into my brother being like, this fucking, I'm killing it. The rod's on fire right now. And he's like, ah. [1:57:54] So my dad raced cars as well. And his race car name, or we called him Gooey growing up. [1:58:01] And he's like, Gooey's got 48 hours to live. And I was like, ah, fuck. [1:58:07] All right. [1:58:08] Um, literally just verbatim like that. Like I saw him the last 19 years. I saw him twice. And one time was in Montana and he had early onset dementia and, uh, my brother drove him down. [1:58:21] great stories there. But so I drive, I take my adventure van, drive up to Kelowna, my hometown. And, um, [1:58:28] And I've got this big beard from Primeval. And I hadn't talked to one of my brothers in years. And then I was still close with the oldest. And get to the hospital. And he's...

[1:58:42] I turn his wheelchair around. [1:58:45] And I'm like, hey, hey, Gooey. [1:58:47] And he's like, who the fuck are you? [1:58:50] Whoa. Yeah. And he's on like oxygen. And I'm like, I'm your youngest son. And he's like, what are you doing here? [1:58:58] And I'm like, I'm just here to say hi and hang out for a couple days. And he was like on point. Like his brain was going. [1:59:07] And it was a little like I hadn't seen my one bro forever. How long had it been since you'd seen him before that? Years. A couple years ago. [1:59:16] Yeah, probably two years. And is it dementia that he didn't recognize you or the beard? No, the beard. [1:59:21] It was a beard. And I was limping with that fucking toe. And so we go up to his room. [1:59:32] This is a Friday at noon-ish, and he's great, though. So we have this young doctor. He's like 40. Great guy. [1:59:42] I go and sit down with him. He's like, I'm like... [1:59:45] Dude, he's dialed. Like, what do you mean he's going to fucking die? Like, he's on point. And he's like, this is what happens. Sometimes when somebody like this, he doesn't know he's dying, but... [1:59:59] He is once like all three of us brothers, all three of his sons were there. And it's like a high and everything. He's just dialed into it all. And just very present because everybody's there. Yeah. And he's like the doc is like, man, I have a feeling.

[2:00:15] All three sons haven't been together with him. And I'm like, in 25 years. And so we were all there. [2:00:22] And I had my assistant back in Santa Fe, and I was like, hey, my dad played for Kelowna Pipe Band. And I was like, call her. I'm like, you got to help me here. Get a piper. [2:00:35] And to come play for him. [2:00:38] at the hospital and she's like on it and she was great and uh the next the next or friday night i'm like gooey what do you want for breakfast and he's like give me something i shouldn't have give me like a fucking costco muffin and uh and a stupid amount of whipped cream and a coffee and so of course i go overboard and bring him this fucking ridiculous the big chocolate chip muffin and and uh the coffee and the next morning but he had gone from like [2:01:06] dialed to he's hurting and uh so we got this piper to come we fucking we're not allowed to do this we bring him out in the courtyard and uh and the piper comes and he's asleep and she's like uh what do you what do you want me to play like they know of my dad that he had played for the colonna pipe [2:01:36] And so she just rips it. [2:01:38] And he wakes up. [2:01:40] And we're all buckled emotionally, right? Because this whole... The pipes to us is just like... That's our father. It's like our only memory. One of our only memories for him. So...

[2:01:50] And she plays two songs and he's falling asleep again and he wakes up and he's and I'm like, gooey, you got one more song. [2:01:58] And he's like, okay, he was a mama's boy, loved his mom. And, uh, and she was amazing. And, um, [2:02:04] He's like, play one for my mother. [2:02:06] So I think at that point, he knew he was about to go see her. And, yeah, so we have all this on video. And his brother was there and his wife and his best friend growing up. And so we fucking, the nurse comes out after the pipes. They're not. [2:02:25] obviously the whole fucking hospital can hear this and so we're obviously got caught and she's like bring him up now and so we're like yes yes ma'am so we fucking have him in his bed and you know those like um wheelchair ramps it's like a hard 90 degree he's out he's sleeping and my middle i'm the youngest of three boys my middle bro's big and then my other bro's like six two big boy [2:02:55] We're fucking, we got him and we're stuck in that turn. So now it's like weekend at Bernie's. [2:03:06] pain movie where it's like [2:03:08] He's fucking, I'm like, hey, Gooey's stuck. [2:03:12] Boys, he's stuck. We can't get over this fucking corner because the bed's too long. And we're dying like we needed a laugh. And so I look down and Gooey's arm is like fucking crooked, jammed in that bar. Oh, no. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa, back up a bit. So we back, loosen it up. And it's like it's not broken, but he didn't feel any of this shit.

[2:03:42] at fucking Bernie's moment. It's our dark humor, man. Right. You gotta laugh in those moments. Yeah, I guess you have to. Yeah, because we were just buckled ten minutes earlier. [2:03:54] get him to the room and he's in and out sleeping and, um, [2:04:00] the next day on Father's Day, uh, [2:04:03] I had to drive back to Bozeman and... [2:04:08] We have dark humor. And so everyone's in the in the room and I'm like, all right, get the fuck out of this room. Everybody like like a joke. But the nurses are like, oh, my God, what happened? I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. It's a joke. I just want 10 minutes with them. And then I got to go. [2:04:24] I got to go back to work, but I'm going to say goodbye. And so they leave and, [2:04:29] He's kind of in and out of consciousness, and he would wake up. [2:04:33] And look right through you. [2:04:35] Like he's trying to be with you or present or I don't know. That's kind of how I took it. And he's fighting consciousness, I guess. [2:04:46] And small little side note, I was driving and the shaman who was helping me for Primeval, he texted me once I got into Canada and he was like, hey... [2:04:58] I had a dream. You got to fucking call me. [2:05:01] And I'm like, I don't know if I believe this stuff, but I'll call you. And so I call him and he's like, hey, something's up. [2:05:10] And I'm like, [2:05:11] I've told three people.

[2:05:13] that my dad's going. And he's like, I had a fucking dream that you're about to lose someone. I don't know if they're close to you. And I hate calling. This is a crazy call, but I'm going to listen to this. And I'm like, man, I'm on my way to say goodbye to my dad. He goes, okay. [2:05:28] That's what it is. Wow. Yeah. [2:05:30] How weird is that? Yeah. What is that? I know. I don't know what that is. What is that? And he's like, tell me about your dad. What kind of guy was he? I'm like, not very present. He... [2:05:43] drank a lot and some regrets of course and [2:05:49] This and that. And he goes, okay, I'm going to set up an altar and pray for him. And this is what I think is going to happen. [2:05:56] He's not going to cross over. [2:05:58] Very easily. [2:06:00] because of the life he's lived. And so when I'm one-on-one with my dad, [2:06:06] I started the conversation. I'm like, gooey, it's me. [2:06:10] And out. And he had soft hands. That's one thing I remember. So I grabbed his hand. And our humor. I'm like, yeah, these are a little fucking soft, Gooey. Like, maybe you should have worked harder. Like, no calluses. Like, nothing. Just... [2:06:28] You know, just trying to... And then I went into, like, the nonprofit, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to try and give back, and this and that, and I promised him. And... [2:06:38] And during that conversation, he would try and be conscious, and he was fighting to be there present. But he was, I think, gone. And then two hours, I left. And then on the way home, I broke hold, and he had passed on Father's Day. And then I was back to work on Tuesday.

[2:06:59] Fucking riding banana bread. Wow. My horse. Yeah, with like Shea Whigham, who's an amazing actor. He played Jim Bridger in that. But, yeah. [2:07:08] Yeah, Pete was great with me on that. Did that help you hold a feeling of loss for your character? I think it, I mean, how crazy art. [2:07:18] It's simulating life and vice versa. Especially... I'm playing a guy, mourning... Right. And then all of a sudden, like, my father, who I didn't really have, died. But it's still your dad, you know? Yeah. And, um... [2:07:30] And Pete was like, hey... [2:07:32] do you want to ride banana bread into this shot or walk them? And I'm like, I'll ride them in. [2:07:40] And I was doing a scene with Shea Wiggum. And it was beautiful because I was upset that some knew that it's my news to tell. [2:07:49] You know, but some had already knew the crew. So I was a little rattled at that when I got to set because everyone was very fragile with me, which I understand. But I was like, whoever told you guys, it's not your story to fucking tell. It's mine if I want to share it with the crew or whoever. But so I was a little upset on set. But then a lot, it was so beautiful, man, because a lot of these older guys on set would just come up and be like, man, my father was this guy to me, this guy. But, you know, I just, I... [2:08:19] feel you and they would share all their father stories. So it was a beautiful experience and Pete was great and Betty Gilpin was amazing and that scene,

[2:08:31] I just buckled, like walked away from the... [2:08:35] Fort Bridger and I just was pretty emotional and and Pete was like amazing and then we shot the scene he's like go home and then I got to my trailer and [2:08:46] And literally to the minute of when I went down, that was the minute he got cremated. Wow. Yeah. And then, but I do think it was really cathartic to be playing that guy. And then I had a beautiful sweat after. And I mourned him the right way. You know, it did knock me, though, for like, I'd say six months after. Yeah. [2:09:11] I was like... [2:09:12] What am I doing? Am I doing everything or enough? [2:09:16] Am I living my life enough? Because even if he's not in your life, you're still like, [2:09:21] to witness that is it was heavy, but I had more in them. Right. And, uh, [2:09:27] I'm in a good spot now, but it was an interesting thing of... [2:09:32] You just take stock, I guess. I've never lost somebody close to me. [2:09:36] Um... [2:09:37] especially in that way. [2:09:39] So, yeah, it was just a... [2:09:42] a blessing to be still on set working and doing that. [2:09:45] Yeah, sometimes you just... [2:09:46] need to appreciate people, and sometimes it takes a loss before you appreciate others sometimes. It's just like you just get too used to people. You get too used to them being around. You take them for granted. And then if they're gone, you just...

[2:10:02] That's, you know what, Joe, that's what I was fucking literally saying. He's just gone. When I was just like that, lived in New York, uh, at a best friend that was a drug addict. And, uh, he was, uh, a crack addict at one point in time. And then, uh, later he started getting into, uh, harder stuff like opiates and he died of an overdose. And, um, [2:10:25] And I moved to L.A. in 94, but we stayed friends. We hung out. He would come out to visit me. I'd go to visit him, but he was always fucked up. He was always a mess. Came to my house once detoxed. I didn't know that that's why he wanted to come to L.A., but he came to L.A. and he was just so sick. He just laid in bed for four or five days. Yeah, brutal. And then... [2:10:42] you know, [2:10:43] A couple days later, I had to go back to New York. But he died of an overdose. [2:10:48] And another buddy of mine that I'm good friends with called me up. We were all tied together and called me up. And it just never made sense. I was like, how is he not here? Yeah. How is he gone? Yeah. [2:10:59] Like, it just... [2:11:01] It just fucked me up where I knew he was going to die. I knew it was going to happen, but I couldn't believe it happened. And then, you know, you got to go back to work. I know. Back to life. [2:11:11] You know, just and you feel so. [2:11:14] like a piece of you is missing. Yeah. Like the world doesn't make sense. [2:11:18] A person isn't in the world anymore. It's so hard to imagine until it actually happens. So abstract almost. And like you said, even if – like I had – [2:11:29] enough time to understand he was going.

[2:11:32] But when they're gone, it's just totally different. [2:11:36] Yeah. And then you just take stock and you're like, okay, am I doing enough? Am I whatever it is? Just tell people you appreciate them sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes that's all it takes. And forgave them. Yeah. Like I didn't hold. I wasn't that son that was like, fuck, where were you? Why didn't you do this for me? Blah, blah, blah. I wasn't. He is who he is. Yep. And you learn that as you get older. Yeah. Yeah. [2:11:57] People are who they are. And some people also, they grew up with monsters. Yeah. That's the other problem. If you try to pretend that, you know, your parents should have their shit together because you have your shit together and they were your parents. No. Who raised them? They were raised by people living in the depression. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. They were raised by animals. Yeah. Like. [2:12:18] Yeah. We've only been truly civilized. Truly. Humans have only been truly civilized for the last few decades. Truly. I think most of history is just horrific barbarism. It's just slaughter and crime. And repeat. And repeat. Yeah. Yeah. Over and over and over again until we developed the ability to communicate how bad that is. [2:12:42] And it doesn't fix it. It fixes it a little. It makes it a little better. But still, even today... [2:12:50] You know, there's... [2:12:52] But the pipes, so every time I hear the pipes, I'm like, ah, it gets you. Yeah, oh, I'd imagine now. I do want to go to Scotland. [2:13:00] Scotland's beautiful. Yeah, I haven't been. I've been there a few times. Really? I love it. Yeah, I love it. People are very cool. It's not overcrowded. And if you can get past the rain, which is kind of a good break every now, especially if you live in L.A. Yeah. It's a good break to see rain everywhere where they're like, good luck starting a fire out there.

[2:13:17] Yeah, yeah, right. You know. And to go into the Highlands and maybe take a motorcycle trip. Or I do want to go and watch those world championships. Oh, yeah. Oh, the Highlands Games? So the guy, I hired three Pipers for his funeral. Oh, wow. And I pull in. I got this on fucking video. And I pull into the parking lot. [2:13:37] A little church in the middle of my town. [2:13:40] And they're doing the fucking putting the air in the bag. And I was like, this time it crushed me. And I took a video from my truck and I went out, introduced myself. And he's like... [2:13:51] you're not going to fucking believe this. And I'm like, he's an older guy. And he's like, I played next to your father at the world championships. [2:14:01] Wow. Wow. Like just randomly, this is the guy playing the funeral. Wow. And he was fucking amazing. [2:14:10] And he stayed a while, and then it was like this little church. You go into this little gymnasium kind of spot, and he stayed and played in the – [2:14:19] in the back and some of my that I didn't know but some of hit my dad's favorite songs so I had those on video too but it was just beautiful wow yeah and it brought all three boys back together you know now we're on good terms it's been super cathartic I was the only one to speak at the funeral [2:14:40] And I'm in the pew and it's his sister who I hadn't seen in a decade.

[2:14:48] And my two brothers and their kids and my oldest is just a puddle. He's just he's wearing sunglasses and just a mess. And the priest was actually quite great. He was funny. And and then my other brother was in front of me and he was a puddle and he doesn't like speaking. And I don't either as me, I'm. [2:15:13] I get a little nervous or whatnot. I'm always good if I'm in character or hiding behind something. But the priest was like, okay, now's the time to say something. And the whole church is just like. [2:15:28] And I look at Damon... [2:15:29] my other brother Brody, and then Damon looks back at me. [2:15:34] The priest looks at me. He's like... [2:15:35] Now's the time. [2:15:38] Oh, so you just had to decide it was you? Yeah. And then my Auntie Lee... [2:15:43] Just squeeze my hand. I'm like, I'm fucking saying something, aren't I? [2:15:46] And she's like, yes, you are. So I get up and I just said, you know, if there's any light to this whole situation, it's that... [2:15:57] All three of us brothers are... [2:16:00] We're back on great terms now. Oh, that's good. Yeah, it's great. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. [2:16:05] Yeah. [2:16:06] And then right back to Primeval. Yeah, right back to Primeval. Go get on banana bread. Take it out on those motherfuckers. [2:16:16] Man. [2:16:17] Yeah, what a trip.

[2:16:19] What a trip. Yeah, that's a crazy experience, man. [2:16:23] When you were doing the Koresh thing, what was the thing that fucked you up the most about playing him? [2:16:29] About even preparing to play him. [2:16:33] Trying to root him... [2:16:35] emotionally to those circumstances that were so foreign. [2:16:41] Like, [2:16:42] The emotional beats of like, I just didn't understand it. I didn't understand how someone could do what he did and then... [2:16:49] He was very, woe is me. [2:16:52] He played the victim incredibly manipulatively well. And I would always say he's like a great coach. And a great coach would be like with you, he could train you and push certain buttons. But then he'll do something totally different with someone else and incredibly manipulative. Yeah. [2:17:12] So I think just trying to root that and understand, I don't think I'll ever understand some of the actions, obviously. [2:17:19] um, [2:17:21] to that level, like how someone can do that. [2:17:24] um, [2:17:25] But it is all out of fear and insecurity and trauma. [2:17:30] Like that part of it, I did understand. [2:17:33] And memorizing the Bible as a defense mechanism. Because when he's with, there was over 20 theologians that would get on the call with him. And I listened to child protective service calls, obviously all the Nesner calls, which was the...

[2:17:50] Played by Michael Shannon. [2:17:52] who's amazing and uh [2:17:56] And every time he got his back to the wall and they had a point or had something or had a level up on him, he would go right into Bible speak, which nobody could keep up with him on. So he would gain that upper hand. And I would just go into a fucking dialogue about a dragon with one eye is about to come and show its face and bear its teeth and take the children. Like, what the fuck do you say to that? [2:18:26] Right, right, right. And you're trying to have a rational conversation of, like, let the children out. [2:18:31] We want these kids out. And he goes, right. And he just goes into this Bible speak. You're like, there's no real rebuttal to that. [2:18:41] And that was, he did this with child protective services too on those calls. He would just go right. And that was such an anchor to him because nobody could play a card like that. Right. Because as soon as you say words from the Bible, you're right. Right. You have to be right. And he's married to it. You're literally quoting the Bible. Yeah. And you're going to argue with me? You're arguing with the Bible. Right. It's Trump card. Truly. Yeah. Truly. [2:19:11] in the classes. And that's how he recruited a lot of people, that he would win these debates, and they would come and join, come to Texas.

[2:19:22] Like, really, like, he would write these letters to people and send tapes to Australia and get them to come. Wow. Yeah. [2:19:29] Like, this was... [2:19:31] incredibly smart guy. [2:19:33] Like that you have to give to him. Isn't it so fucked up that someone with a brain that works that well... [2:19:41] would choose to use it in that way. [2:19:43] All just fear. [2:19:45] I mean, even the way he's talking about God and the end of days and how he needs to bear, I think, around 22 children that are going to go up with him and ride a cloud up there and all these crazy things. He had the answers to aliens. [2:20:02] What was that answer? I can't remember, but people, I do want to know. To your point, though, it's like... [2:20:09] He ended up shooting himself in the head, right? Which, ironically, you don't go to heaven if you do that. Which is... But also, like... [2:20:19] he does all this shit and [2:20:22] I don't know. Just that was a big thing for like Paul Sparks and I played my right hand man of like when we shot that death scene of like, man, like I do wish to your point, he was still alive and we could learn shit. [2:20:35] All these guys, they end this. They drink the fucking Kool-Aid in the bed. It's such a fascinating... [2:20:44] perspective that I do wish we could break that down and maybe learn something from this. [2:20:50] than just him shooting himself in the head and burning in the house. I don't know what you could learn.

[2:20:58] what you could learn, especially after... [2:21:00] the event, like the raid on the compound and everything. Like what could you, all the people are dead. Like what could you learn from that guy then? [2:21:07] He's going to be so fucked up. Yeah. [2:21:11] I mean, nine people survived that. One of the survivors, Thibodeau, was there with us, his drummer, every day. [2:21:20] And, yeah, yeah. [2:21:22] And what did he say he was like? [2:21:25] It goes back to your point that he still was thinking that he's coming back. Oh, my God. Yeah. Wow. So he – I know. Wow. And this didn't come out until our last week of shooting – [2:21:39] Because I got along incredibly well with him. [2:21:42] And he did write a great book and give me insight to moments that I asked to be in the show. [2:21:50] I mean, he was going... [2:21:53] I don't know, to North Dakota or the Dakotas, to someone had blueprints for an alien warship. [2:22:00] And he was going to see these blueprints. And we're just in between takes. We're in between takes sitting in our set chairs and me and Paul Sparks and we're like, hey, what are you doing after this? After we wrap? And he went on and told us he was going to look at blueprints to this worship. And we're like, hey. [2:22:22] Okay. [2:22:23] Wow. Copy that. [2:22:25] Yeah. [2:22:26] So... [2:22:27] Those are the type of guys, though, that wind up in calls. Yeah.

[2:22:32] Yeah. Yeah. Sweet, man. Uh-huh. Like, very helpful, was great to us, and was very open, but... [2:22:38] I mean... [2:22:39] A lot of majority of people are followers, right? So, well, there's a lot of people out there that have brains that don't really work that well. Right. Just truly. That's just how it goes. Yeah. It's a very unfortunate roll of the dice, but your, your brain does not let you navigate through life very well. And you need someone to hold your hand and tell you what to do, even if it's completely illogical. Yeah. [2:22:59] And those people wound up becoming followers. I think it was the new light. He called it the new light. This is a while ago, but I think it was a new light. Dave woke up and he got everyone together and he's like, I just had a word with God and it's the new light something. And it's where I'm going to – I'm the only one now that is going to sleep with the women. [2:23:29] I think he was Australian or... [2:23:32] Anyways, this guy was like, fuck that shit. I'm out. And like 20, 30 people. [2:23:39] laughed. [2:23:40] But – [2:23:41] A lot stayed, right? A lot stayed, yeah. You're always going to get people that stay, and then they think that if they stay, he'll like them even more now. And those other losers who are in the way of them getting attention from Dave... [2:23:53] Now I'm going to be tighter. I'm staying. Fuck that. Yeah. I'm Team Koresh. You can fuck my wife, bro. With that fucking jersey on. Nuts. Team Koresh. It is, man. Nuts. It is. It's a weird thing that people have encoded in us to look for a leader. I know. Very strange. I know.

[2:24:12] You know, I think it's just from tribal DNA. That's what I think. Yeah, that's a good point. I never thought about that. If when we were groups of like 150 people, the only way we could survive, you got to listen to the wisest, most experienced person. And that's the tribal leader. [2:24:26] That's how it always was. It was the greatest warrior, the one who knew where the fish were, the guy who knows what you're supposed to eat and not eat and where the danger is, and that guy's going to help you, keep you alive. Yeah. [2:24:38] We always have that in everything. We have it in businesses. There's always like one top monkey at the top of the pile. Yeah. That fucking carrot. It's weird. But you see it in chimpanzees too, man. It's crazy. It's a primate behavior. All those chimpanzees, they have a tribe leader. They have one guy who's the fucking top chimp. He's running shit. It's weird, man. It's like it's encoded in us. And so for people that aren't that smart, someone like David Koresh can totally exploit that. [2:25:08] go, I am the leader. You're like, wow, I'm so glad I met you. I was lost without you. You are found now, my son. You are found. [2:25:16] And also, that guy's so confident. Yeah. He must be right. Yeah. I'm not confident. Yeah. He did say tanks were coming, and they're here. So literally, that was a big moment. That's what he said? That was a big moment. Wow. Yeah. That must have been freaking out. The Seven Seals. He was rewriting the Seven Seals, his final days. Oh, boy. I know. I know. [2:25:35] The whole raid on the compound thing is nuts. It is. When you see the fire coming out of the tanks, you're like, what did you guys do? Yeah. There's a guy that ironically was Dick DeGuren, his lawyer. Yeah.

[2:25:48] And he was speaking in Santa Fe when we were shooting this. [2:25:52] So I'm like full fucking stop. We're going to hear Dick DeGuren speak. He's speaking about Waco. He's speaking about his experiences as a lawyer. And he did. And I went and introduced myself. And there's a crazy story. It was Dave's mom who called him. [2:26:09] And was like, this is what's happening. Would you go help? Blah, blah, blah. He was on a fishing trip, I think. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to go. So he showed up to the compound on the perimeter that was set. And he's like, I'm that guy's lawyer in that house. You need to take me over there. FBI puts him in a fucking tank. [2:26:29] And he goes to the front door in a tank. And the door has this big piano. I've tried getting this in the show, and we couldn't. So there's a big piano at the front door, blockade. Dave wasn't allowed to walk by the windows, all this kind of stuff. This is deep into the 51-day standoff. And Dave's right-hand man, played by Paul Sparks and another, his lawyer, [2:26:56] Harvard grad, I think. [2:26:58] Um, [2:26:59] Answer the door and Dick's like, oh, I see the bullet holes in the ceiling, a couple bodies that the ATF didn't allow you to take out. You got a case here, but where's Dave? [2:27:13] And they show him the house and all this kind of stuff. And so they're back in the foyer and the piano is against the wall and they're talking. And he's like, okay.

[2:27:24] I don't, I want to help. [2:27:26] But I don't know where Dave is. [2:27:29] And he's leaving. And he's like, you got a fucking case. And the right-hand man just goes. [2:27:35] Dave was in the fucking piano. [2:27:38] Listening to this whole thing. [2:27:40] thing. [2:27:43] What a psycho. And so he got back in the tank, and Dave got briefed of their walk through there, and... [2:27:51] Anyways, Dick DeGearan was his lawyer on that. What a fucking story, though. How crazy. And I wanted to be in that piano and shoot that. Yeah. That would have been unbelievable. Yeah, that would have been an important part. I know. [2:28:06] It's an important part of the story. It really is. That's how nuts he was. Yeah. He was hit in the fucking piano. Yeah. [2:28:11] So scared to get shot or didn't trust anything. God. But those guys apparently in that tank, they were like ripping Dick DeGuren and like spitting on them and doing this kind of shit. Because they're like, you do know they just killed a bunch of ATF guys in that shootout as well. [2:28:31] And you're going to go fucking be this guy's lawyer? Fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. [2:28:37] Right, so. But the thing, what started off the feud? I don't even remember. How did bullets wind up flying? Yeah, so... [2:28:47] It was Dave had... [2:28:49] He was selling like homemade bulletproof vests and was like, had these. I know. Fucking. And the ATF were kind of spiraling out.

[2:29:02] Like their funding was about, they were about to get defunded and they needed a win. They needed it. What was it? The Ridge? Ruby. Yeah. There you go. So they dropped the ball huge on Ruby Ridge, right? Say that again. Yeah. So, which is at the very beginning of Waco and they needed a fucking win here. Find a cult leader into weapons, selling ammunition, I think, and bulletproof vests and this kind of stuff. And this guy's. [2:29:30] got these kids and all this is perfect. And that started it of just like, we're going to go get this guy. And there's a famous tape that we put in the show too, where Dave was like, I'm, [2:29:42] You know, why didn't you just like he did this run all the time and was kind of just out and about working on the house, running around. He had a fucking go cart track around the the compound. And he's like, why wouldn't you just arrest me when I'm on a run, when I'm on this or that? But they needed a lot of press and they needed. [2:30:04] to get funded again. So they made this a spectacle and then it fucking turned into what you saw. Like they were, they wouldn't let fire trucks come and take that fire out. [2:30:15] That's a fact. [2:30:17] And then... [2:30:18] They're playing that music of animals being like mutilated into the compound. [2:30:25] Yeah, then they were flying the ATF flag. I asked for that to be put in, but we didn't put it in. But they were flying the ATF flag while it was burning down.

[2:30:33] Wow. Yeah. Yeah. [2:30:35] It's legit. Wow. [2:30:38] Crazy, man. Wow. [2:30:40] They needed a win. Yeah. [2:30:42] And then that's so dark. I know. I know. Picture I-35 right here, fucking tanks and all these armored trucks, everything going down I-35. It's incredible. [2:30:58] And they're just sitting right in front of the house. [2:31:02] Now, 51 days is fucking crazy. That is crazy. [2:31:06] Yeah. [2:31:08] Wow. [2:31:09] I know it's just hard to believe that they would do that but then you you read the Ruby Ridge thing yeah They shot a woman while she was holding her baby. Yeah, and [2:31:18] The Kid in the Back, I think. Yeah. Yeah, the dog. Shot a kid, dog, yeah. [2:31:23] And for what? I know. For what? For nothing. I know. [2:31:27] Yeah. [2:31:28] It's weird, man. [2:31:29] It's weird. You could be an assassin for the government. [2:31:34] Yeah. And even just think you're just doing your job. But it's like, this is seems pretty fucking criminal, guys. [2:31:42] It's a lot. It's a lot. It's just hard to believe that they would... [2:31:47] 77, six people died? [2:31:52] 20-something kids. Driving over the house in a tank and shooting fire into it. [2:31:58] And then they denied doing that. [2:32:00] They denied doing that with the tank, shooting fire. But you could watch it. You could watch the fire come out of the tank. Yeah.

[2:32:08] It's horrible shit, man. [2:32:10] I know. [2:32:12] What a role. So when you get out of that role, when you stop playing that guy, man, how long does it take for you go back to being you? [2:32:20] Probably... [2:32:22] I bet you a month. [2:32:24] "'Six weeks?' [2:32:25] - 'Til you shed it? - Yeah? - Yeah. [2:32:28] Go do something that makes you feel you and alive. Motorcycle ride. [2:32:33] Something. Get the fuck out. Do you dream of that guy? Oh, yeah. [2:32:37] Not anymore. But you did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Your subconscious... It's funny because it's like... [2:32:45] That's you marry yourself emotionally to said circumstance. And so my subconscious and I'm sure a lot of actors will say it's like you're wide open. And so you're more vulnerable. I'm way more emotional. [2:32:58] And so because you just do the work and you're just your subconscious is open. So my your dreams, once I start dreaming a little fucking crazy, visceral stuff, that's when I know I'm getting closer. [2:33:10] for sure. [2:33:12] Wow. Yeah. [2:33:13] Like you're getting haunted. [2:33:15] A little bit. And then it takes six weeks to detox you and fucking exercise the ghost. And then it's like... [2:33:24] You play this guy. You know what's fucking crazy? It was ACL. [2:33:28] And I was walking and prepping for Waco and randomly, out of nowhere, this guy is talking about Waco and that it never happened. Right.

[2:33:39] Like this is so random and I was with my buddy who's out there and [2:33:44] And I was like, holy shit, what the... [2:33:47] We got to do this story now. [2:33:50] There's people out there that believe that it's just one conspiracy theory that never happened. That's so crazy. And I was like, what? There's people that believe everything, though. I know. If you can figure out the conspiracy, there's a whole group of people on Reddit dedicated to it. Yeah, yeah. You're late to the party. Any conspiracy, just fill in the blank. There's a bunch of people that think space is fake. There's a whole online community of people that don't believe in space. Yeah, yeah. Okay. [2:34:17] There's people that believe a lot. That's a big... Yeah. Just to say that alone just feels like, sorry. Yeah, it's people that like flat earth is not crazy enough. They want to take it to the next level. The next level is space doesn't even exist. Yeah. [2:34:30] Okay. You know, that's all, you know, when you get older, you know, [2:34:33] And people will just straight up like when they talk at you telling you false shit. Right. You're like. [2:34:40] Okay. Okay. Usually I'll bite and be like, you're an idiot. This is what is actually happening. But no, now it's like. [2:34:47] All right. Sometimes it's exhausting, though. I know. Shut up. I know. That's so fake. Yeah. How do you believe that? But they, like, double down, triple down on it. [2:34:57] Yeah. Yeah. [2:34:58] Um... [2:34:59] Yeah, I just had one of those moments. There used to be a lot more of those people before the Internet. [2:35:02] I know, man. That's a dangerous game. Yeah. I don't read shit, which has really helped me. Oh, yeah. It really, like... That's very healthy. Yeah, it is. Like... Yeah. Yeah.

[2:35:14] I don't read any reviews, any of that. I learned the hard way, man. I got hammered on John Carter. [2:35:22] That put me in a dark spot. [2:35:25] Um... [2:35:26] But yeah, had to rebuild everything. [2:35:30] Um... [2:35:30] But, yeah, you're down that tunnel and you're just like... [2:35:34] Like, they're not just like, he's a bad actor. It's like, this guy should die. Yeah. You're a terrible person. Yeah. It's nuts. Personal attacks. Yeah, the world would be better if you were never born. Like, whoa. Damn. Fuck. I know you're just trying to write a saucy article, but holy shit. It's a lot of fucking sauce. A lot of vitriol there. Yeah, man. Yeah, it's weird, man. People, but that's, you know, they like doing that to people they don't know. It's zero accountability. It's so easy. [2:36:04] Because of social media, anybody can do it. [2:36:07] Yeah, I was just asked. You never used to hear people's opinions before. You had a movie in 1979. The general public either went to see it or did not. Yeah. And it was like a word of mouth thing. And then there was like Siskel and Ebert and whoever else was reviewing stuff. Yeah, the five other reviewers. Yeah, that was it. And if the New York Times said it was good, you'd go see it. Yeah. Yeah, but now it's like fucking everybody. Clickbait, negative always beats. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get more clicks on a negative hit. [2:36:33] And then, you know, that was the beauty of like Friday Night Lights. Like I never, there weren't reviews really. And I was just, we didn't have social fucking media. We're in Austin, no real producers on set or writers. We're kind of, Pete set it up so great. And you're just going there slinging, trying shit, failing, trying again. It was such an amazing experience. Without all the extra input. Without any of the weight of like, is this going to be successful? Yeah. What does that even mean?

[2:37:03] now, you know? Yeah. Well, do they still do focus groups when they do a film? Yes. They still do that. So that's kind of like a small internet. Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of, because you're like, well, who are these people? Yeah. They might be like 200 morons. Yeah. Like, [2:37:19] By the way, I like Oklahoma. But there's certain spots where, you know, like if you wanted to tank a movie, you'd do a focus group and, you know, some moron community where everybody's on fentanyl. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys watch this movie. No, I slept through half, but I don't like that guy's hat. Did they get paid? Is that like a job? I don't know. That's a good question. I bet they do. I bet they do, which is then you have to factor in, okay, what kind of a person is getting paid to do focus groups? They might be a failure. [2:37:49] A really dull-witted, dull-minded person, and they get to decide the direction of this movie. And like, I don't like the ending. Yeah. [2:37:56] Yep. Reshoots. Uh-oh. $20 million reshoots. 40% of the audience said they didn't like the ending. 40% of the audience wouldn't pass a piss test. Yeah, true. Even like John Carter was like one of the highest tested movies in Disney's history. [2:38:12] And we got hammered, obviously. But it's like, I don't know how much that... [2:38:16] moves the needle or anything i think people distrust the media more than they trust the media now but if something sucks like if a critic says it sucks it still works yeah if i see a one star review like oh that movie supposedly sucks yeah like i don't give it any other thought it still does work but if something's really good people go no no no no no no no no fuck the critics this movie rules yeah like look at adam sandler's movies the critics always hate them the audience

[2:38:46] loves yeah always yeah the most lopsided thousand I know it's crazy yeah his movies such a sweet guy he's the best he's the nicest guy of all time and he's a great regular actor too uncut gems was bananas that movie gave me so much anxiety and I was like don't do it because he played that guy that gambling addict so well [2:39:11] So believable. Great directors, too. Yeah, it's just great. Smart guy, smart move. But his comedies, I love his comedies. They're fun. And I love that I can watch it with my kids. Like, he's got, they're funny. Like, Jack and Jill is funny. It's fucking silly and ridiculous. And Al Pacino's in love with his sister, who is him. It's funny, man. It's a funny movie. It's so stupid and silly. Yeah. But the critics hate those movies. They hate them. [2:39:37] Like, okay, what are you going to see? It's an Adam Sandler movie. This is really good at making this kind of movie. If you want to go see a fun, lighthearted, silly movie. Which we need a little more. With a lot of heart to it. Yeah. His movies are the ones to go to. Yeah. [2:39:52] But critics hate him. Yeah. They don't. It doesn't matter. If people love it, that's what matters. Yeah. I mean, Terminalist Season 1. Yes. We got hammered. Yes. And the people spoke, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't matter. That's why I'm here. Yeah. Like, that's why Dark Wolf is dark. We're doing it, you know? It's because people wanted to see why Ben is fucking the way he is and made that decision. Yeah.

[2:40:16] if we didn't [2:40:18] There's no way we would have got that green light. There's no way. Well, because it's written by Jack. So Jack Carr, who's a good friend of mine, who's an awesome human being and also a SEAL, and writes and had the goal. This is how crazy Jack is. Had the goal of first becoming a SEAL, getting military experiencing, and then becoming a great writer. He had it in his head. Did he really? Yes. He always wanted to be a SEAL. He always wanted to serve. [2:40:48] Do those things. [2:40:49] Get real life experience. That guy has a love of history. It's unbelievable. Incredible love of history. He's a walking encyclopedia. He's so brilliant. And his recall is phenomenal. But imagine that kind of decision making. I'm going to be a SEAL. I'm going to go get deployed. I'm going to get military combat experience. And then I'm going to go write books. [2:41:16] That was his set. Eight bestsellers. Seven or eight. And right out of the box, Terminalist, his first book is fucking incredible. It's incredible. But the guy prepared for it his whole life. He's a voracious reader. Voracious reader. Reads constantly. Can recommend books constantly. He's always great about that. So his first book out of the gate, it's like he'd been preparing for it his whole life. I mean, when he comes on to set, [2:41:44] And we're shooting this in episode five. He came to Budapest. And his energy...

[2:41:50] Like, he's like a kid in a candy store, man. It's like I'm fucking gassed out, tired, and, like, just... [2:41:58] Getting beat up and here comes car and it's just the light It just brings an energy to that set that it's just like man. We're so lucky to be here and you're like, you know what? You're kind of fucking right we are her yeah, and I just love that guy man super supportive right when I got the role Yeah, he's like not pressing me He's like I know you played a seal before if you want any of my notes who Ben is and he's like if you want that long leash Here it is [2:42:26] Like, I trust you. Like, he's been nothing but amazing with me so far. He's a brilliant guy. He really is. Yeah, he really is. Super caring. Yep. [2:42:34] Yeah. Yeah. Well, just – [2:42:36] Great man. Yeah, like a truly great man. Yeah, it's so cool when a guy like that gets to write stories that are [2:42:45] really reflect the true lives that he led and then he knows a lot of his friends lead and it's real it's like he has a an understanding of it that obviously the success of his books and success of the series that understanding just translates in a way like oh this is very authentic yeah even like little notes man i would get with the gun work and all that kind of shit and [2:43:15] more excitement. Mm-hmm. [2:43:17] And you don't take it personal. You can't. And you want to get it fucking right. When you have him and Jared Shaw, who's another SEAL, and Mendoza, who's a SEAL, and we got a...

[2:43:28] Army Ranger who writes a lot of it. We're surrounded by these guys every day. [2:43:35] So if they want, if anything is not authentic, you're, I mean, the bullshit meter is like fucking two feet away. Right. You know? Right. And I love that, though, because they're doing a lot of my work for me, helping me. [2:43:48] making me look like fucking Ben. Right. You know? Right. [2:43:51] It's a complicated character too. [2:43:53] Yeah, a lot of that stuff... [2:43:56] Like, one of my best buddies, a SEAL, and had, like, 200 guys under him, fought in Ramadi, and bomb specialist guy, wicked dude, and... [2:44:06] There's a moment in the CIA room in episode one that was written, and then I kind of – [2:44:13] I've been hearing this from him for so long. And so it's kind of ingrained in me of just like how there's always someone to answer to. And you're never really getting the full transparent part of what they're putting you out for. So I'd heard all these stories for like the last since loan. I met him on loan. [2:44:33] And so that scene, I was like, [2:44:36] This is for you, man. I'm just going to fucking go and have at it with this CIA guy. And he was at the premiere and watched it and loved that beat. But it's like I get to serve some of these guys. They don't get to have those moments. Right, right, right. And that's so fun for me to just fucking go and light them up in that room. One of my favorite scenes. Cathartic. Yeah. Yeah. So I steal from these guys. Even like, and I get it.

[2:45:06] hammered for being the twist of season one right I'm the guy who kind of orchestrated a lot of it and [2:45:14] And I was talking to Marcus. [2:45:16] Because I'm like, how the fuck am I going to root this guy, this seal that's like best friends with Reese? And now all of a sudden the twist is like... [2:45:25] Man, I had a hand in this. I'm the guy that put you guys down that tunnel, on that op, and your whole fucking platoon died. [2:45:34] for the most part. [2:45:36] I just literally, it was like a little moment that I had with Latrell where he was talking about going back and dying with his boots on. [2:45:45] And I was like, [2:45:46] really settle into what that means. [2:45:49] This warrior is just... [2:45:51] decidedly going to die over there serving. It's beautifully tragic. And I was like, that is where I hung my hat with Ben of like how I can root this crazy twist of like, I'm making this decision for you, but you're going to go die with your boots on. [2:46:08] Instead of this fucking, you're going to die rotting in this hospital bed, no insurance, your family, all this kind of shit. I'm like, I'm going to take that decision for you. So that's where I rooted Ben for season one. Wow. Yeah. [2:46:21] And then I go and open... [2:46:24] the Mike Murphy museum, uh, with Dan and Marcus and a lot of other seals, obviously. And, uh, a lot of the seals were like, I fucking get it. [2:46:34] But a lot of people just were like, how could you? And I get that part too. But it was just like – Both things are true. Yeah, truly. Yeah. Both things are true. How could you and I get it. Yeah. Yeah.

[2:46:46] He's a human being. Yeah. And, you know, [2:46:50] That's one of the reasons why the show is so interesting. Yeah. Because people are fucking super complex. And how fucking gray it all is. Yep. And how it goes back to like you're in mourning of a buddy. You broke this promise. His family's dead. And now I'm on an op and I get in front of the guy that killed this guy's family. Yeah. [2:47:10] I'm going to fucking put them down. [2:47:12] Fuck this. The beauty of Ben, too, in this is he's accountable for it. [2:47:17] Like, I'll take it. [2:47:18] take my trident then. I'd do it all over again, which is a beautiful thing. And I think he does. [2:47:27] it's an emotional reaction that, you know, phrase his life and, uh, the other character, uh, [2:47:35] Rafe's character he gets his trident taken, but it's [2:47:40] That's one thing we were talking about earlier. I'm just like, it's so fucking gray. And in these really split decision moments, [2:47:48] that you have... These guys aren't fucking robots out there. It's like they're emotional. They're fucking trained... like better than anybody. But at times... [2:47:57] They have to make these decisions. [2:48:00] that is like, [2:48:01] Okay, you're going to fucking put those girls on the black market or sell them or put them in the sex trade. You don't get to live anymore. [2:48:09] I'm going to do that. [2:48:10] But that's a beautiful thing, too. [2:48:13] Yeah, and people can relate to it. Totally. Because if you were in that scenario, what would you do? And most people would like to believe. They would say, you're not going to live anymore. Yes, exactly. We have these talks on set all the time. You're an American primeval. We can romanticize the 1850s, or at least I did at the beginning, of like, this guy's a fucking mountain man. This is sick. Like, he's a motherfucker. Like, if you see me on the river in 1852, and you're like...

[2:48:42] I want your jacket. [2:48:44] you're going to just come up and kill me and take my jacket. Yeah. Like, that's how fucked up the 1800s were back then. Yeah. Lawless. Lawless. And so we started shooting, and – [2:48:56] I was like, we're shooting at 10,000 feet up there and you're cold and we're still spoiled, obviously. Your trailer's 50 feet away. But it's like, fuck this. I'm like, there's nothing in me that would want to be in the 1850s. Nothing. Nothing. No. I can't believe people made it through. [2:49:14] I can't either. It's hard to believe. I can't either. And those people were living in a lap of luxury compared to people who lived 4,000 years before that. Oh, my God. Good point. 200 years earlier. Yeah. It's nuts. I mean, it's like what we were talking about earlier. Civilization is super recent. [2:49:32] I mean, it's not. Obviously, there's ancient Egypt and all that stuff, but I mean... [2:49:36] What we're dealing with right now is super recent. Yeah. [2:49:39] Relative safety, relative security, relative – [2:49:45] I mean, when you go hunt, Utah, backcountry, wherever you're going, you're going to be in the shit. It's going to be beautiful and quiet and like – [2:49:53] I live for that. Yeah. Well, that's why Montana is a great place to hunt, too. Yeah. And Montana is a truly wild place. Yes. I mean, outside of Bozeman. Right. 30 minutes outside. Yeah, 30 minutes outside, you've got a truly beautiful, incredible place.

[2:50:14] just un... [2:50:16] uh, [2:50:17] If you've never experienced the mountains, like the true mountains, especially when there's some snow on the ground and the wind's whistling around, it's like – [2:50:26] It's majestic. It's like the most extraordinary... [2:50:29] work of art that nature created. There's something about mountains. Really? [2:50:36] awe-inspiring. It's like, wow. Perspective sinks into you. You're in the moment. And it's weird that very few people live near them. I know, right? It is. When you get there, when you get there, you're like, oh my God, I want to see this every day. [2:50:51] Then you're on a flight to New York in two days. I lived outside of Boulder for a while. Oh, beautiful. And it was like that every day. It was like you're just driving through these mountains. This is incredible. This view that you have is like a vitamin. [2:51:06] It really is. It restores your soul. Yeah. Look at this place. Yeah. And it's not a coincidence that people in mountain communities are chilled out. Yeah, you're right. It's not a coincidence. No. They're surrounded by this overwhelming majesty of nature and it's humbling. Yeah, it is. It is. It makes you a little chiller. Totally. Yeah. And I think for me too, it's so good for the brain for all those reasons, but also it's just like, if I'm sitting around. [2:51:33] feeling sorry for myself or whatever it is, bored, it's like it's your fucking fault if you're bored out there. Right. There's a thousand hikes. Go get into wildlife. Go to the national park. Go for a fucking walk. Anything. Fix your perspective. Truly. Yeah. And it does. It does. It does. After an intense roll or whatever it is, once I land in Bozeman, man-

[2:51:55] get on the bike or whatever, go fly fish. It's like... [2:51:59] It's a beautiful thing. And there's less people there. So it's like. Yes. Yeah. You don't feel the buzz. Yeah. Relax. Yeah. [2:52:09] I just bought a $35 fucking protein shake before I came here. In Austin? Yeah. I was like. What the fuck is in it? I look up. What's in it? Yeah. It's like. I don't know. Probably like koala DNA that's going to give me hard for the next seven days or something. Grass fed tallow. Yeah. [2:52:29] Yeah. Where'd you get it? But I was just like, just down the road. How do they charge $35 for a smoothie? That seems a little outrageous. I keep adding shit. I was adding. Oh, you're adding protein and stuff. Yeah, creatine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was like, what's happening? Yeah, it's not Montana. But even Austin, like, compared to where I lived before, I lived in L.A. and living here is like... [2:52:50] There's only two million people. Yeah. It's so much more. Yeah. Yeah. Like what they think is traffic is adorable. Yeah. It's this cute little traffic you have. It's true. LA is insane. It's just a terrible way to live. It really is. Yeah. It's a terrible way to live. Yeah. And I think I get how people used to want to live there because it was the center of, you know, the TV business, the comedy business. But it's not worth it, kids. No. No. It's not good for the soul. I mean, nothing's being filmed there anymore. It's rare. [2:53:20] It's just weird, right? Yeah. [2:53:22] It is. How did that happen? I don't know. How did they fuck that up? I know. How did you fuck up the one spot where everybody wanted to move to to be an actor? Yeah.

[2:53:30] You fucked up that spot? Yeah. And they have everything. Yeah. Mountains, beaches, fucking. You can get to the mountains, to the shore in two hours. Yeah. You're up in Big Bear. Yeah. You're down in Santa Monica. Two hours. Yeah. It's nuts. Studios, everything's there. Yeah. Yeah. And they fucked it up. Yep. Brutal. What the fuck is happening? I don't know. I know. I don't know. I'd blame politics, but I think there's a lot of other stuff going on, too. Yeah. [2:54:00] It takes exceptional people to have real vision and learn how to keep stuff together. Yeah. Yeah. [2:54:05] I don't know. I don't know either. I'm not a big fan of L.A. Yeah. Yeah. I lived here for 17 years. Did you love it here? I did. Yeah? Yeah. I love the lake life. It's nice. It's fucking amazing. It's a chilled city, too. It's like genuinely good people here. Yeah. There are. And normal people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. In L.A., everybody is like a failed actor, want to be an actor, trying to get on a reality show, looking to be a TikTok influencer. Oh, God. Everybody's got something. [2:54:35] They'll dump them from you. Always. Always. Yeah, and every connection they make is like a networking thing. Every new friend becomes someone who's an asset. An asset, yes. Yeah, because it's like very transactional. Yeah. [2:54:46] Gross. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. Well, listen, brother, you're a very interesting guy, and you've got some awesome stories, and you're a really great actor. Thank you. I've been a fan for a long time. Likewise. So this was really fun. Thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure, brother. Tell everybody one more time, Terminalist, Dark Wolf, it's available now on Amazon. Yeah, on Amazon. Which is great, and I know the Terminalists killed it for Amazon. Yeah. It was a huge show. We're number one right now. That's amazing. Yeah, thanks. That's awesome. It's a great show. It's a great show. All right. My pleasure. Bye, everybody.

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